Subject: Re: Java is really convenient. Re: Sun thinks about switching Java to S-expression syntax: Lava
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 1999/02/16
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* (Christopher R. Barry)
| * You can download a full, uncrippled Java implementation + IDE for
|   any major platform absolutely free, and in the case of the JDK even
|   get the source code.  AFAIK you can only do this with the Unix
|   platform for Common Lisp. offers Allegro CL Lite to any stray comer.  includes IDE.
  (but use LOAD-COMPILED instead of COMPILE-FILE and LOAD.)

| * Swing, unlike CLIM, doesn't cost $4000-$7000 to even try out on Unix.

  none of the CLIM providers charge you money for trying it out before you
  decide to buy it or not.

| I think every ounce of hype Java has recieved is deserved.


| As a language itself, I think it's better than C, C++, Eiffel, ADA,

  "Ada" is named after Ada Lovelace.  it's a proper name, not an acronym.
  (I helped start the "Ada in Norway" user group in 1985.  it's my "other"
  language, and my company logo still carries symbols from the Ada world.
  that people write ADA, like they write LISP, is a pet peeve.)

| And Common Lisp sure can't compete with its real cost in most situations
| (all things considered).

  I don't think you are a competent judge of that, _especially_ not the
  parenthetical remark.

| It would be nice if Common Lisp could at least standardise some of the
| networking, threads and i/o functionality you get in Java, and if it had
| a standard, accessible and reasonably priced GUI toolkit.

  I'm still confused as to this standardization issue.  yes, it would be
  nice if it were standardized, but why can't you use something today?
  Common Lisp is a standard _because_ it was used and gaining solid support
  for a number of really complex things.  if people who do not understand
  how these things work refuse to use something _until_ it's standard, it
  will likely never become a standard, and if, against all odds, it should,
  you guys will complain and not use it, anyway.

  some of us prefer languages that don't change a lot, that aren't in the
  middle of the fight between good and evil, and on which long-term
  investments may actually be made with solid profit expectations.  Common
  Lisp has a problem in that only mature people use it _after_ they have
  become disgusted with other languages and their hype.