Subject: Re: Best Lisp for Windows NT?
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 1999/05/05
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Dobes Vandermeer <>
| Yes, but he would have discovered exactly what he'd expect, that the
| prices are too high to be reasonable for an individual who wants to do
| serious programming (i.e. getting the professional or enterprise version)
| without paying serious prices.

  you seem to assume that he's _initially_ after a means of doing serious
  programming.  I'm not sure this assumption holds at all.  in any case,
  what kind of _serious_ programming is it if you can't afford Franz'
  licenses?  the problem is how to get to know Allegro CL in the first
  place, not how to make money once you can defend the cost.

  incidentally, I know for a fact that Franz Inc has a liberal evaluation
  period if you are in position to purchase at some later time.  again, if
  you can't scrounge up the funds during that period, what _are_ you doing?

  in the interest of less hits on misinformation by the search bots, I have
  not commented on your faulty assumptions on what you would need to buy.

  incidentally, "discovering exactly what you expect" before actually
  knowing anything for a fact means you're either excessively brilliant or
  blinded by prejudice.  if you're excessively brilliant, it seems unlikely
  that you can't find someone else to fund your license fee for you.  this
  leaves one option.

  when it comes to the actual pricing, I also know for a fact that Franz
  Inc has been burnt by the free Linux offering.  it seems fair to conclude
  that those who want dirt cheap or free stuff are less honest about it
  than those who find ways to pay the regular price.  I'm not sure it's a
  good idea to try to pacify them any more than it makes sense to pacify
  screaming kids by giving them what they want, either.

  in the projects where I have introduced Allegro CL to the client, the
  cost of the entire project has dwarfed the cost of the licenses by a
  factor of at _least_ 10.  I think this is entirely reasonable, and don't
  see a problem with it at all.  as long as it is possible to evaluate the
  product realistically before coughing up the dough, it should be easy to
  show that the other development costs dwarf the licensing costs.

  I must therefore assume that those who complain are either working for
  free, do not plan on making any money, or are not doing serious work.
  for the latter category, there's the Linux offering or the personal
  edition.  for the former categories, I'm not quite certain what the
  expectations are.  should Franz Inc fund you instead of you getting
  someone to fund you to pay Franz Inc?  I don't think that is reasonable.
  however, I'd be willing to help fund a Lisp Programmer's Charity so poor
  folks could get scholarships and free licenses to the extent that they
  don't get it on their own -- Franz Inc _has_ given away licenses before,
  but it seems to require a little different approach than to whine on
  comp.lang.lisp since you guys haven't gotten what you want.  how about a
  change of tactics?

| So, when you take the actual facts into acount, his initial assumption
| is TRUE, and you, Erik Naggum, are wasting all of our times with your
| vacuous commentary.  I find it disgusting that you find it "amusing to
| watch how people react when their assumptions fail" in a public forum.

  on the contrary, your own assumptions are equally, if not more, amusing.

| Send any flaming replies to

  what the hell good would that do?  I mail compliments, post criticism.