Subject: Re: application architecture for UI (Ex: Re: Is LISP dying?)
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 1999/07/25
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Andrew Cooke <>
| 4.  Open agression, name calling, and a ghetto-like mentality that seems
| to assume that all non-Lisp users are idiots is not just depressing, but
| could actively discourage someone from using software that may, in fact,
| be useful (not all these features are in your posts, but they have all
| been appeared in this thread).

  I've spent all week trying to catch up with news after a couple week's
  vacation, but when I see how hostile Andrew Cooke is to participants in
  this newsgroup (how is accusing people of "ghetto-like mentality" going
  to help things?), I start to wonder whether he actually prefers lingering
  and suppressed aggression, scheming, and backstabbing to open aggression.

  I prefer people who speak their mind instead of waiting for a long time
  to make a really big issue out of individual issues that normal people
  would have a normal reaction to that let others know they were annoyed,
  but those who have to suppress their emotions would have to accumulate
  every time they suppressed them.  you see, Andrew, those who speak their
  mind immediately DON'T accumulate their anger, so when you see open
  aggression, it is not because someone who has suppressed his anger for
  years got mad, it's a genuinely useful way to AVOID ever getting mad in
  the face of a lot of stupidity and annoyances in open fora.

  in a suppressed-emotion world, you're supposed to grin and bear it, which
  means that the thresholds are so high that only if one did in fact view
  non-Lisp users as idiots would the behavior you don't understand become
  applicable, but this is not so.  instead of reacting severely only to
  major crimes, people say "hey! you!" at every contact with people who do
  the wrong thing.  you interpret that as people being loudmouths and rude
  and whatnot, without understanding that anyone could be so culturally
  challenged (in your view) as to care about these small things.

  suppression of emotion and the "grin and bear it" mentality don't scale
  very well, and people tend to get a lot more upset with the scheming,
  backstabbing bastards whose anger has lingered for so long they have been
  completely blinded by it and can no longer see anything but that which
  annoys them -- in brief, they actually do get depressed by it all.  you
  see, Andrew, that's just what happens to people who _don't_ speak their
  mind in time.

  so, what you see is a healthy discourse among people who aren't so
  uptight they fear that someone might see they are hurt or annoyed in
  public.  being so uptight that such fear rules one's life probably works
  in very small communities where everybody thinks and acts this way, but
  it fails miserably in large communities, and especially open communities,
  such as the Internet.

| 5.  If you care about the language and the GUI, why not try and convert
| people rather than make enemies?

  people don't make enemies, the react to actions they don't like.  people
  who make enemies because of their interaction in a newsgroup are mentally
  disturbed and should seek counseling.  those who look at others as if
  that is what they do are probably even more in need of counseling because
  they are obviously unable to cope with anything but suppressed emotions.

  and let's talk about Lisp, not eachother, OK?  people are most intersting
  to people who keep accumulating annoyances do until they have to burst,
  but people you don't intend to relate to are not interesting, even though
  their actions and ideas might be worthy of notice, so unplug and relax,
  Andrew.  you'll feel better and we won't have to listen to your whining
  every time your buffers run full.

  suppose we blasted all politicians into space.
  would the SETI project find even one of them?