From ... Path: supernews.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!127.0.0.1!nobody From: Erik Naggum Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Subject: Re: ACL 6.0 Trial Edition ships with non ANSI reader behavior. Date: 08 Nov 2000 00:59:21 +0000 Organization: Naggum Software; vox: +47 800 35477; gsm: +47 93 256 360; fax: +47 93 270 868; http://naggum.no; http://naggum.net Lines: 84 Message-ID: <3182633961883425@naggum.net> References: <3182371042747250@naggum.net> <3A04CA75.96A92BE8@fisec.com> <3A0618EA.B29DB165@fisec.com> <3A06E0ED.6016BA05@pindar.com> <3A07D26A.4B4EF01C@pindar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 973648089 14819 195.0.192.66 (8 Nov 2000 01:48:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Nov 2000 01:48:09 GMT mail-copies-to: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 Xref: supernews.google.com comp.lang.lisp:3452 * John Foderaro | No matter which Common Lisp you use, you are using a Common Lisp | that has extended the ANSI standard. Nobody argues against this. It's the decision to _break_ the standard that is under attack, not the decision to extend it. Why don't you get it? | So we have extended Common Lisp to support a Modern mode. But lie about the readtable-case, ignore requests to change it, and consequently break the standard. It's the breaking that is wrong, not the extending. What does it _take_ to make you realize what the issue is, John? | You don't have to use this extension just like you don't have to | use any other extension. Not so. If I want that extention, I must accept that readtable-case is no longer working. That's the crucial difference. | case sensitivity is and always has been a very sensitive topic | for reasons I don't understand. Well, it is apparently very sensitive to you, while others tend to think that you're highly irrational for it, since it isn't to them: They just invoke the proper functions to get it, and that's it. To you, it's apparently a major issue of language design fundamentals. Is it that you don't understand why people don't accept your views? Well, it _could_ be because you don't care what theirs are. | Lots of people don't like the loop macro but no one has ever | suggested that we engineer Lisp so that the loop macro can never run | in it. However that was not the case for case sensitivity. So why _do_ you break readtable-case? | So there will always be people who hate case sensitivity and see | no need for it. No, John, that is just not the case. Case sensitivity is an option in ANSI Common Lisp today. I want that, but I also want the option of case insensitivity, and it's _you_ who don't wamt to give it to me (unless I take unfair advantage of my superior knowledge of the system and nuke an internal variable). It is you who hate case internal and see no need for it. Don't blame others for this. | Those people can just build the ANSI image. And if they wanted lower-case symbol names, too? Sorry, John, but you've just plain lost it. I want _both_ lower-case symbols _and_ case insensitivity, but you're the beliggerent jerk who don't want me to have that, and you break the standard so I can't get it. | What I'd like to see is people who might find Modern mode | interesting give the Modern mode a try and give us feedback. | We've had one piece of feedback that readtable-case should be | active. I'd like to hear about experiences from others. We've | got a system that works but we're willing to change it if that will | increase the usefullness of it and if will convince other | implementors of Common Lisp to include the Modern mode extension. Well, I suppose I should be happy that you have finally _noticed_ the feedback, but I'm not. You're asking people to vote on whether you should uphold a standard or not. That's somewhat like voting to dismantle the entire government and go into anarchy. If you're for anarchy, just do it. There's no need to have any vote on it first. Just publicly declare that Franz Inc is no longer in the business of selling a _conforming_ Common Lisp system, and nobody would bitch at you, anymore. They probably wouldn't buy from you, either, but that's at least an _honest_ and principled exchange of ideas. What you're doing now is lie to us all, break the standard gratuitously and signal that you consider conformance a question of public polls. | - john foderaro | modern mode cult leader Geez. You really think this cult crap is funny. #:Erik -- Does anyone remember where I parked Air Force One? -- George W. Bush