Subject: Re: Israel Thomas and Marcus G. Daniels and respect for people
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 10 Dec 2000 08:34:06 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Marcus G. Daniels
| As you've observed, I've been following your posts.  Extrapolating
| from disrespecting you to disrespecting people is not justified by
| what you've seen via this bait-and-observe procedure of yours.

  I was not going to respond any more to your increasingly obvious
  mental problems, but when I'm not even _people_, you have clearly made
  it all the way to full-blown insanity, and anything can happen.  It is
  only the criminally insane who no longer believe their targets are
  _people_, who are _able_ to commit violent crimes against them.  What
  keeps us all back from killing others is that we are of the same kind,
  the idea that hurting somebody else physically is a violation of very
  important principles that apply equally to ourselves, but you keep
  showing me that what applies to me does not apply to you, and now I'm
  not even people.  Losing respect for people is the first step towards
  the criminally insane mind.  Losing the ability to think of other
  human beings as of one's own kind is the last, the idea that one is
  different from others, an outsider to humanity.  You have crossed that
  crucial line, probably a long time ago.  I wonder what kind of people
  you have already killed or hurt and how they offended you, if it was
  enough to say something you disagreed with, or if they said something
  that you thought was bad, so you could hurt them without remorse,
  because you have none of that, either, and never have, as the record
  shows with frighteningly extreme clarity.

  I'm glad you finally admit to disrespecting me, however, and that you
  do so as if it is something you are entitled to and proud of.  You
  really are mentally sick.  That _is_ good to know, however.  I'm sorry
  I have wasted so much time on you, but the end result, that I have a
  criminally insane stalker named Marcus G. Daniels out there who has
  actually lost the ability to consider others as human beings, is a
  _little_ easier to deal with than if you were sane and smart and just
  plain evil, which I thought at first.  Now I can ignore you, like you
  actually deserved from the beginning, and you can go back to your sick
  oblivion where you won't be visible until you can disrespect and annoy
  somebody else who responds to you, probably until you kill them or do
  physical, violent harm to them.  Insane stalkers like you can safely
  be left to the police.  The kind of evil intelligence that continues
  to post disrespectful snide remarks for years on end cannot, as it is
  and must be within our concept of freedom of speech, but it is very
  seldom _just_ that, as we have discovered about you today.  Both the
  sick obsession with me, which actually scared me a long time, and the
  insistence of your stabs, were good indicators several years ago that
  you had a problem that went far beyond the reality of the situation.
  Your insane rant about bizarre cults was the first solid clue, but now
  that you have excluded me from the category "people", too, it is no
  longer about me, and it probably never was about me at all, I was just
  so unlucky as to push one of your buttons.  That has happend only once
  before, but he got a three-year jail sentence for the stuff he did,
  not just towards me, but to a few other people who pushed his buttons
  and caused him to create demonic and monstrous images of people that
  he thought he was in his right to hunt down.  This horrible experience
  is part of the reason why I make such a big deal about not attacking
  people, only their actions, not their person, only their choices, and
  why it is important to let people get an unlimited number of chances
  to change their ways for the better, which must be rewarded and their
  past ignored when they do.  But some people can't change -- they have
  lost the ability to be fully human, and they end up hurting people or
  their property because they no longer consider them principally the
  same as themselves.  You are that kind of person, Marcus G. Daniels.
  Other people ought to beware of you.  Your inability to discern fact
  from fantasy, such as in your sick exaggerations about me and what I
  do, means that nobody is safe around you.  I don't know what caused
  you to attach to me, but I know it scared me when it happened about
  seven years ago if memory serves me right.  Other people must know
  that you attach to people and obsess about them and fantasize about
  them and create demonic images that you cease to compare with reality
  before you act on them.  You attack people for something they do not
  in fact do just because your own mental images of them tells you what
  they _should_ have done if your mental image is to remain correct, and
  it is much more important to keep the mental image intact than to quit
  the obsession with people.  I pegged you as a religious fanatic first
  because they share the same mental disorder: That of raising their
  beliefs so far above reality that any observation that does not fit
  the belief is simply discarded -- hence your exaggerations about me,
  your demonic image that is not me at all, and your obsession about me
  over so many years, complete with hundreds of pointless snide remarks
  only directed towards me.  That kind of patience is _frightening_ from
  a person who has lost the ability to think of others as human beings
  and provably does _anything_ he can to hurt somebody else.

  There's no hope for you, Marcus G. Daniels, but others need to know
  that if they see someone place themselves _outside_ what they do to
  other people, _outside_ any group of people for whatever reason and
  whichever kind of group, even the so-called social outcasts, and they
  defend their actions by virtue of being outsiders, you look straight
  at a person capable of evil and violent crimes.  It's not just about
  absence of empathy and remorse, but about their ability to be part of
  humanity.  Once somebody loses their bond to humanity and think that
  some people are not the same kind of people as themselves, somehow
  exempt from the rules that bind them, you have people whose ethics
  _first_ has to determine whether the other person is "their kind"
  before it applies at all.  Racists are the easiest example: People who
  respond emotionally to somebody who bears the genetic manifestations
  of a different group and therefore to them sufficiently different that
  they are no longer bound by the ethics that apply to "their kind" of
  human.  Racists actually do kill people because of this conviction
  alone, but racism is not a cause.  Disrespect for people, be it one or
  everybody else, is the root cause: They have set up the distinction
  between two groups: Whom to treat within their ethical boundaries and
  whom not to.  People who first consider _who_ somebody is don't have
  time to respond emotionally to anything else -- our emotions are very
  simple things.  Either we fear people or we fear actions.  I don't
  know what goes wrong or how early, but some people get their wiring
  wrong seemingly at a young age and make that mistake for the rest of
  their lives.  I don't think they can be rewired except through so much
  pain that they regress to the point before that wiring was laid down.
  This is _not_ an issue of what people think or believe, it is _how_
  they think and believe.  They can be described in words and language,
  but they cannot seemingly be reached with words and language, as no
  amount of counter-evidence affects _how_ you accept the evidence, or
  filter it out, as the case may be.  Take Marcus G. Daniels, who says
  he has been following my posts, but he summarizes them with a total
  absence of nuances and reflection.  He has not _seen_ deviations from
  his expectations for many years.  To him, a deviation from expectation
  is an _error_ in the observation and the facts, which he must have
  ignored systematically through all these years.  To people who are
  wired right, an expectation that does not come true is a signal that
  the _expectation_ was wrong.  What causes some people to prioritize
  their own _prejudiced_ expectations and disregard reality?  What
  causes someone to hold onto expectations that only come true once in a
  while, without even considering new relations and causes but holding
  on harder to what he already believes?  Can such people be trusted at
  all?  Can they do any work with their mind at all?

  Marcus F. Daniels is not an _unintelligent_ person, but the severe
  mental disorder that subjugates a complex reality to his neat, orderly
  mental images also afflicts those whose intelligence is so high that
  their ability to make correct expectations at an early age causes them
  to believe in some mystical powers of their own mind, and reality no
  longer matters.  I enjoyed working with highly intelligent children
  many years ago, and it is one of those incredibly painful and sad
  experiences of my life to see one of them turn into a murderer who had
  absolutely no ability to conceive that it had been wrong to kill the
  girl he killed, by an incredible act of reckless violence that had me
  wondering for years what caused him to kill her, but it was quite
  simple: She had violated his expectations, and he had always worked so
  hard to get his expectations right, often rearranging reality to fit
  them with an extreme amount of effort and dedication that we all
  thought would end in some incredible creative force, but instead he
  had to remove that mistake in reality rather than in his expectations:
  _She_ was an error and she had to be fixed, with violence.  She just
  failed to get fixed and died instead.  That's disrespect for people
  and elevating one's own prejudices and ideas above reality.  He also
  failed to expect the reaction from society to such an extent that he
  collapsed as a person within days and committed suicide at age 15,
  before anyone could have managed to straighten him out.  I have never
  seen unintelligent or children of average intelligence muster the
  intellectual power that causes them to believe their own mind to be
  better and more trustworthy than reality, although the enjoyment of
  every kind of magic and fairytales and mystic and wizardry is a sign
  that many _wish_ their minds were better than reality at a certain
  age.  I have concluded that it is a phenomenal curse when it is and
  children experience that they can guess faster than they can learn.
  This latter thing is what I mostly associate with stupidity, however,
  and why I do _not_ equate intelligence with absence of stupidity.
  Quite the contrary, the more intelligent, the more potential to be
  stupid in just this crucial way, to believe that what you can pick out
  of your own mind at zero cost is better than what must be dug up from
  reality at great effort.  I have seen that mistake cost two lives that
  both should have been great by all measures and indicators.  It made
  me focus very hard on the methodologies of correct assessments of
  reality and on what kind of requirements we must have to avoid bugs in
  observation that can lead people to prefer their ideas over the facts
  and become something horribly disfigured like a Marcus G. Deniels.

  Maybe I'm overreacting when I see people who show every sign of a
  runaway intelligence that recklessly ignores counter-information that
  would have blown their prejudices and expectations to smithereens,
  maybe I'm overly hostile to the kind of stupidity that mostly really
  smart people suffer from and maybe not enough people react healthily
  to a sudden change in reactions relative to their expectations: namely
  to go "what the fuck?" and reexamine their expectations rather than
  just curse reality for failing to live up to them.  Maybe, but I don't
  think so.  I think people of much higher than average intelligence
  have a goddamn _duty_ to avoid these methodologically easily avoidable
  mistakes, even though they do cost a lot in terms of the effort it
  takes to put reality and observation first when you haven't had to do
  that since you were a pre-schooler.  (I also think the school system
  is throughly evil in the way it is optimized for children so slow that
  kids only one standard deviation above the median begin to see that
  learning from experience is significantly more costly than guessing
  and lying and making quick fixes where it failed.)  I have much more
  sympathy for unintelligent people who signal a failure to get the
  point and request a better explanation than the intelligent people who
  signal impatience because they think they got it and didn't.

  There is much less intellectual dishonesty among people who aren't
  smart enough to make up a sufficiently large part of the world that
  they can live in it, and the bigger part of the world you can create
  inside your own head, the more important it is that you don't move
  into your own mind, but keep living in the real world, with its
  incredibly annoying habit of wrecking _every_ constructed expectation
  sooner or later.

  And I consider anyone smart enough to discover Lisp ipso facto subject
  to that goddamn duty.  This is probably a mistake of expectations on
  my part -- I'm not exactly immune to such mistakes.  After this Marcus
  G. Daniels stalker experience and the last insane rant from an equally
  obsessing and soon-to-be-recycled Israel Thomas, plus that Aaron K.
  Johnson fuckup, maybe it's time to jack down the expectation that most
  people _understand_ their goddamn duty when exposed to it a couple
  notches, but I'll still think they are just the lazy good-for-nothings
  that avoid the effort because it hurts to think.  With the retarded
  popular culture and mass marketing that makes everything completely
  effortless for anyone with an IQ 80 or above, idle minds of greater
  prowess get so lazy that most of them probably get stuck in neutral
  and never have to _do_ anything, except perhaps in some relatively
  small niche they call their specialty or carreer, which they got into
  by working really hard for a relatively small fraction of their youths
  and then stopped wanting to learn more, like how to push the fucking
  buttons so Dumbya wouldn't get elected with *minus* 350,000 votes.
  That's _also_ disrespect for people, and Dumbya kills people, too.

  "When you are having a bad day and it seems like everybody is trying
   to piss you off, remember that it takes 42 muscles to produce a
   frown, but only 4 muscles to work the trigger of a good sniper rifle."
								-- Unknown