Subject: Re: What I want from my Common Lisp vendor and the Common Lisp community
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:29:50 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Siegfried Gonzi <>
> Your message has been very interesting, but Erik: You are a naive guy.

  Really?  Naïve.  Nobody has ever said that before.  I think you are
  reading a _lot_ of stuff into what I said that simply is not there, and
  the rest of your message is so far out I think this conclusion is

> Do you really believe there is a collaboration between dealers and the
> user-community?

  Um, actually, yes (provided that you meant "vendor", as in producer of
  products).  If you do not believe there is, you are simply ignorant and

> On one side you are promoting (in other posts) that only
> commercial-dealers are capable of producing a good Lisp product and  now
> you are whining.

  I am whining?  About what?  Are you sure you have read what I wrote?

> Erik, there will never be the situation when dealers will ask you what
> you want.

  And this has what to do with what I said?  Do you perhaps not see the
  difference between stating what I want from a vendor and wanting them to
  ask me what I want?  Why should the vendor ask _me_ for anything but my
  money?  The real question is how smart they are in trying to pry them
  loose from my hard and fast grip when I tell them that I want a fully
  conforming implementation of Common Lisp and some enthusiasm, please.  If
  they are just a wee bit smarter than completely asinine bozos, they will
  understand that denouncing the very things I came to them to purchase is
  not the way to do it.  Unless, of course, they have been taught by their
  users that it _is_ OK to denounce the standard they try to implement.

> This is not because you are Erik Naggum, its because they run a business
> and nothing else.

  And this has what to do with what I said?  What do you think running a
  business entails?  If they say "we hate the standard, but buy the best
  implementation of that shit from us", do you think they run a business or
  a freak show?  If they ran a business, they would say "we love this
  stuff, and if you buy the best implementation of this wonderful stuff
  from us, we'll love you, too".  That is what marketing is all about.

> I am also a naive guy and often promote a programming language in the
> hope the developers want also hear my opinion; but often I get the
> impression they do not listen.

  And this has what to do with what I said?

> I am not against commercial-products (even when they are pricy; we also
> in the astophysics-community use expensive tools, e.g. IDL costs USD
> 2500.-), but open or free software can in some cases be more flexible.

  And this has what to do with what I said?

  Is the concept of enthusiasm _really_ this foreign to people?

  Perhaps this was a naïve thing to do.  I mean, post an optimistic,
  upbeat, enthusiastic message about how languages thrive only when people
  love them, to a crowd of fucking retards who want their language to
  wither and die.  What was I _thinking_?  Well, I put my neck out.  If the
  Common Lisp community rejects enthusiasm and optimism and they really
  find it much more fascinating to post gloom and doom and listen to the
  death knell of their past loved ones than to get a grip on themselves and
  start thinking positively, well, then _I_ have better things to do with
  my life than to congregate with such pathetic losers.  Perhaps this will
  be a test.  Perhaps we will see a show of hands from the negative morons
  and the positive people who want Common Lisp to live are way outnumbered.
  Then I have no reason to expect anything from this community at all and
  the vendors are indeed right to denounce their own livelihood and try to
  grab as much cash from the poor sods who still use Common Lisp as they
  can, because they see that they are going downhill and do not even want
  to _try_ any way to get back on track.  Perhaps it was really stupid to
  ask publicly if people were positive or negative, to ask people to say
  they love or hate their language, because perhaps everybody just loathes
  Common Lisp and I am the only "religious zealot" left who likes it?
  Perhaps the John Foderaros among you are right.  But I still hope not.