Subject: Re: What I want from my Common Lisp vendor and the Common Lisp community
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:50:06 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Alain Picard <>
> But, now, Erik, do you _really_ think you are helping your own cause by
> calling people "moron" and "corpses"?  Don't tell me whether or not they
> _are_, I don't care about that.  I mean, calling people that _publicly_,
> do you really think that helps?  Maybe it does.  Shock therapy, who
> knows.  But I'm not very convinced.

  Shock therapy it is.  But also an attempt to show those who denounce the
  language and the great stuff that I love and want to use what it feels
  like to be denounced.  Believe you me, they recognize this and they do
  feel it.

  However, you are probably right.  There are probably people who like John
  Foderaro despite his antisocial attitude and self-destructiveness and who
  want him to stay.  They would be put off by my very strong desire to have
  him ostracized.  If there were a way to make them take care of him and
  make him realize that he could change his ways, something I personally
  doubt is possible at this stage, it would have been better to encourage
  that.  Suffice to say that I think there is as little hope for those who
  hate the standard as they think there is hope for Common Lisp becoming
  what they want it to be.  Now, they have been extremely vocal against the
  standard in extremely unproductive ways (take it up in the committee if
  you want changes, dammit!), but the standard _is_ what the community has
  agreed on and what these guys pretend to be selling an implementation of.

> As for the open source lisps -- well -- they're open source, aren't they?
> Of course you're at the mercy of the head implementor, who may _be_ a
> total nutcase for all I know (I'm NOT saying he is!).  But if the
> community wish really IS for an ansi compliant lisp, wouldn't a fork of
> the sources, to bring them into conformance, be a more positive step?

  This would work iff the enthusiasm could be rekindled.  Whoever wants to
  put in any work on such a thing if they are constantly facing a barrage
  of hostility from those who hate the standard?

> What about the work that Dan Barlow is doing, the cClan guys, the CLiki?
> They seem to be LOADED with enthusiasm!  It seems to me there is
> certainly a community of lisp programmers who love their language, who
> love their tool, and who love what they can do with it.

  You are absolutely right!  These are the people that should be regarded
  as the Common Lisp community.

> Anyway, I'm just rambling, but I guess I'm just hoping to cheer you up.
> Good night Erik.

  Thanks for the nice words and feedback.