Subject: Re: MD5 in LISP and abstraction inversions
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:12:39 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* John Foderaro
| So the ANSI spec is out of this.

  Your claim is that the standard if, when, and unless should not be used.
  This is the crux of the matter, not if*.  If they could be used freely,
  then if* has no merit whatsoever.  The only merit of if* is if it should
  replace the standard conditionals.  This is defintely your point, since
  you are even telling people that code will be converted from standard to
  Foderaro style if submitted to you, because you cannot, supposedly, read
  standard code.  Since you are quite hysterical about having your freedom
  threatened in any way, please try to understand that you are threatening
  the freedom of those who want to exercise their freedom to employ the
  standard to its fullest.  Apparently, you ignore this aspect of your if*
  stunt completely, because you want to exercise _your_ freedom, and do not
  give a flying fuck about others.  That others have _repeatedly_ and very
  strongly objected to your anti-standard attitude has never registered
  with you as far as your lines of defense can provide information, because
  you only talk about _your_ freedom to create new macros, never about the
  freedom you seek to take away from those who like the standard.  Those
  who want the standard to be our common point of agreement are labeled
  "religious" and worse things by you in your fight for if*.  This is very
  clear evidence that there is a fight between conflicting freedoms, here.
  Now, this does not normally happen among freedom-loving people.  It does
  happen quite frequently among people who want to control others.  I have
  objected to your stupid, stupid if* stunt on the grounds that you forbid
  if, when, unless, and (let us not forget) cond.  You have not grasped it.

  Now, we have a word for people who disregard other people's freedom and
  rights and everything in their zeal to exercise their "freedom" to do
  something that is frowned upon by other people because it curtails the
  freedom of others.  That word is: CRIMINAL.

  The reason people object so strongly to what you do is that you have
  abused the freedom you have to create macros and the like to create one
  that you have married to a political agenda to destroy and deprecate the
  standard conditionals, and the open source activity of Franz Inc looks
  like it has no other purpose than to destroy the standard by creating a
  community around that requires your if* stunt and your lower-case
  nonsense to work, and which you ensure will _not_ work without changes to
  the core Lisp system and patches  will not be accepted back into the
  source with standard conditionals or extended loop.  Whether you accept
  it or not, this is a pretty pathetic case of intimidation of those who
  want to follow the standard, on par with the "religious" crap you do.

  If you argue that people should accept your if* stunt because it is
  within the limits of conformance to add new macros, why do you at the
  same time argue that people should not use if, when, unless, cond, and
  extended loop, which are _also_ within the limits of conformance?  If I
  say that people should not use if*, how the hell is that different from
  _you_ saying they should not use if, when, unless, cond, etc?  Why do you
  invoke "relinquish our freedom" when I tell people not to use if*, but do
  not even understand that you specifically want to order people around?
  This does not make sense to me.  In fact, it provides me with sufficient
  information to suspect _seriously_ foul play.  Why do you want to take
  away other people's freedom to use the standard constructs?  Do you not
  _understand_ that this is what people object to in your very political
  agenda?  Why do you fight for if* based on _freedom_ when what you really
  want is to control what other people can and should do?  You _have_ told
  us that you will even rewrite the code of your colleagues to remove the
  standard conditionals.  What kind of work environment does this create?

  Norway is now run by a priest from the fundamentalist Christian People's
  Party, the fifth largest party representing one eighth of the electorate.
  Carrying a Swiss Army pocket knife in Oslo, Norway, is a criminal offense.