Subject: Re: Oh, and a little history
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:15:08 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Thomas Bushnell, BSG
| Who are those people?  Steele?  Sussman?  Which people "left"?

  Troll.  You know full well that the communities are different and how
  they have developed differently and have different values, and are now
  only being an annoying asshole.  Such passive aggressiveness is perhaps
  the leats honorable way of dealing with other people, but you are also
  quite the master of it, accusing people of things they have not done by
  responding to something as if they had.

| >   Expect other people to be more intelligent than you and know more than
| >   you do -- it leads to an ability to _listen_ that far surpasses those who
| >   think they are the smartest and most knowledgable person on planet earth,
| >   in general or in some particular respect.  
| I have seen no evidence that you follow your own advice here.  But one
| thing is clear: you are just irreforambly unpleasant.

  People who lie and misreprsent me, who go out of their way to annoy me,
  and who assume that the most idiotic thing they can think of is what I
  have meant, generally do not prompt me to be nice to them.  Is that a
  surprise to you?  You demand slack for yourself, but cut me none.

| I figured I'd do a reality check: I'd see whether a bajillion people
| insult me on comp.lang.lisp, or just you.  Yep, just you.

  You have been "insulted" by a "jibe" back at you when you were joking
  about something, and you found something much less provocative than your
  own stuff "strongly provocative", and then you spend your time attacking
  me and portraying me as something I am not, and you expect _not_ to be
  treated harshly in return?   Gime me a break!  Do you think I _like_ the
  kind of holier-than-thou, moralistic bullshit that the likes of you
  fault-finding, blame-throwing assholes squirt out of yourselves?  Clean
  up your own goddamn act before you hand out judgments!

  Who is the "only" person you go out of your way to insult?  Me!  Why is
  that?  What is wrong with you who have to blame me for your own actions?
  Only the morally delinquint have to resort to such tactics.  Only those
  of a criminal mind betray a permanent failure to accept responsibility
  for their own actions.  It is always somebody else's fault that they
  cannot behave, and those who call them on their misbehavior are at fault
  for their problems, too.

  You have responded with hostilties to innocent jokes and gestful remarks
  about the loser language Scheme, probably because it is near and dear to
  you, but that is not my problem.  Take charge of your own values, dimwit!
  "Hey, I like Scheme" is such a better response than "Common Lisp sucks",
  which you have engaged in when you felt I said something negative about
  Scheme.  This is _not_ a Scheme-lovers forum.  Expect people to dislike
  something you like when you are no longer in fora expressly dedicated to
  what you like, but be smart enough not to insult what people have joined
  a forum because they like.  Is this so hard to understand for you?

| Then I'd check to see whether you insult only me, or a bajillion others
| too.  Yep, you insult a bajillion people.

  Yeah, try to make it my fault that you insult me.  Pathetic loser.

  If you have figured all these things out, why do you keep posting
  inflammatory crap about and towards me?  Is it somehow morally justified
  in your twisted hypocritical ethics to attack those you blame for your
  own misbehavior?  Do you have no control over your actions because you
  feel incensed?  You choose to _act_ on your own accord, Thomas Bushnell.

| It's clear to me that the reason we don't get along is that you've chosen
| (for whatever reason) that you don't want to get along with people in
| general.

  You have no idea what I want.

  I want, for instance, to be relieved of religious crap about Scheme and
  strong typing because I think those things are horrible wastes of human
  ingenuity, and most people are smart enough to talk warmly about these
  things elsewhere, because they know how annoying such topics are to at
  lot of people, especially when they turn to talk about how Common Lisp
  "lacks" so and so feature that Common Lisp people do not want to have in
  the first place.  I want, for instance, to be relieved of the terrible
  speeches made by George W. Bush over this War on Terrorism, and lo and
  behold, I find none of them here.

  I actually want respect for the choices I have made.  I actually like
  Common Lisp just the way it is.  A whole bunch of other people have made
  the same choice, and some of us are here in comp.lang.lisp, and that is
  _why_ we are here in comp.lang.lisp.  However, _repeatedly_, we have some
  jerkoff from some other language newsgroup come trolling here with his
  "your choice is wrong" rhetoric, arguing for something I have made a very
  conscious decision I do not want.  I grow tired of defending my choice
  all the time in the forum that was created to _cater_ to my choices.

  You have told me about the soc.motss trolls who go into that forum with
  the sole purpose of telling people how the choices made by the residents
  are wrong, how they "should" choose something else, etc.  You have found
  a good way to deal with that.  Perhaps it works well there.  Over here,
  we have self-righteous assholes from the Scheme camp in particular come
  and preach their unwanted gospel and then have the gall to be _offended_
  when they are told to leave!  What kind of disrespect for other people's
  choices and decisions do those Scheme freaks suffer from?  Why are you so
  unable to understand that those who inhabit comp.lang.lisp actually
  _like_ what Common Lisp offers?  All that arrogant nonsense about "Lisp"
  being a large family and that D*lan and Scheme freaks have the right to
  post about the superiority of their pet languages hwre instead of the
  newsgroups that were created to let people who _agree_ to that nonsense
  (in my view) enjoy their own company, _really_ bugs me.  Cut it out!

  I want, in general, to find refuge from the mind-numbing incompetence
  that is so highly valued by the clueless bosses you are disloyal to.

| It's a real shame, because I can remember when I respected you.

  Whereas I do not take your lack of ability to keep your Scheme rants to
  an appropriate forum or your hypersensitivity about jokes about Scheme
  personally.  I think Scheme is a _bad_ language, and I say so.  If you
  take this personally, you _are_ a fool.  Please note that you do in fact
  respond with personal attacks when I have ridiculed Scheme or perhaps
  your arguments.  I have little respect for people who do that, and I
  could not care less what they try to blame me for when they are clearly
  responsible for it entirely on their own.

| The only effect of your messages is that gnus now permanently scores your
| articles so low, that I won't be bothered by them.  Fortunately, the rest
| of the newsgroup is still good reading, despite the way you want to spew
| urine all over the floor.

  Your own role in this is of course as a saint, you are an undeserving
  victim of any "abuse" and "insult" -- even when it is not there -- and
  there is of course no room for the kind of "humor" you want to reserve
  for yourself.  Such hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitudes generally
  produce hostilities everywhere.

  Unlike you, I have a purpose with being here: I want to read about fun
  and interesting stuff in, about, and with Common Lisp.  I do not want to
  read yet another discussion of why Common Lisp is broken by design, why
  the choices made by Scheme or D*lan or whatever are better.  I am so sick
  and tired of the negativity that you fault-finding, blame-throwing
  assholes have to bring to this forum that I probably pull out the .45 and
  shoot you guys in the knee just for your failure to respect that the
  choices people have made in this forum should be respected on their own
  premises, but then I see that you think you have a goddamn _right_ to
  annoy people here because you think D*lan or Scheme "is a Lisp" and
  therefore _must_ be tolerated, and _you_ caanot deal with the fact that
  my opinion is that you should go somewhere else.  You have your own
  little fan clubs.  Go have your fun there and invite those who would like
  to take part in it to do so, do _not_ force your stupid opinions on
  people who have repeatedly told you to get lost.

  Besides, the strongest reason I think Scheme sucks is that the only
  people who have bothered to bring Scheme to my attention are assholes who
  sneer at Common Lisp in one way or the other.  Lacking call/cc is a great
  plus.  Funcall is much better than one namespace.  Seeing recursion as
  some sort of "superior" way to deal with things is dumb.  Not seeing
  assignment and side-effects as different is dumb.  I would love never to
  be reminded of Scheme's existence again.  Trust me, if I want Scheme, I
  know where to find it.  Just like Perl or C++, two other languages for
  whose apologists and propagandists I have absolutely no tolerance.

  My message is simply: Take your Scheme discussions to comp.lang.scheme!

  When you guys refuse and start being snotty and arrogant about Scheme
  being a Lisp, you have lost track of whatever purpose you had in talking
  about Scheme in the first place.  It becomes much more important to you
  to defend Scheme's status as "a Lisp" than to talk about _any_ other
  interesting  thing, and you get emotionally entangled in the rejection of
  your pet language, even though you are not on that pet language's home
  turf.  You have to accept that your loser languages are disliked by some
  people outside of their dedicated fan clubs.  Inside the fan clubs, it
  would be gravely insulting and annoying and trolling to denigrate them,
  but somehow you unprincipled, hypocritical retards think that only Scheme
  needs this respect, and Common Lisp does not.  I reverse that and watch
  you guys make a spectacle of yourselves, usually ending up with being
  such low quality human beings that you have come out on top by throwing
  all blame on someone else.  Only _bad_ people who know they are bad need
  to make somebody else responsible for their own bad actions.  This is
  what gets personal, because those who have an inability to accept a
  simple rejection of their chosen language, certainly have no ability to
  accept rejection of their behavior.  Such are the nature of the people
  you have chosen to be a member of, Thomas Bushnell, by putting yourself
  in the "bajillion people" that I supposedly insult: idiots and morons who
  fail to grasp the simplest little thing about rejection of their ideas.

  But why do I bother to tell you things that I _expect_ that you will
  respond to with 100% emotion and _no_ rational thought whatsoever?  I
  believe you have the choice to think and _could_ exercise it.  Some
  people resort to feeling when they feel pressed, others to thinking.
  Some even figure out who is the real sort of their experience of pressure
  (themselves) and figure out how to stop feeling pressure _without_ making
  any sort of attempt to blame anyone else for it.  Such people are maybe
  not the majority, but they exist.  Most people work that way when they
  are not threatened, but what possible _threat_ could somebody's opinion
  as stated on a newsgroup be?  Being annoyed and asking someone to leave
  does _not_ merit a personal attack in response from the _offender_.

  I wager a bet that you were unable to read this message without being
  engufled in hostile emotions, and consequently expect an emotional
  response, rife with insults and innuendos, arguments against things I
  have not said, omniscient insight into my mind and my desires and
  intents, perfect and flawless understanding of everything I have said,
  and absolutely none of the latitude you require for yourself.
  Furthermore, your arrogance will most probably exceed itself with a
  renewed display of your perfect insight into who I am, because you have
  to take _revenge_ -- the least intelligent of all human emotions, the way
  our psychology tells us that our intellect is insufficient to deal with
  an unwanted situation.  Surprise me, Thomas Bushnell, and be smart.  I
  know you can, because you can do it when you do not have to "win".

  In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none.
  In a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief.