Subject: Re: Packages
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:27:03 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Thomas Bushnell, BSG
| So he must like everything about it, or he's against it?

  It is the other way around.  Only those who are against it, express their
  dislike of it.  Those who are for it, think in a very different way: "It
  would be even better if ...".  The difference between dislike and like
  less than some hypothetical situation can seem hard to grasp, but think
  of a line, with zero in the middle.  Dislike is on the left of the zero.
  Like is on the right of the zero.  "Like less than some hypothetical"
  ought to have both on the right of the zero, and that is certainly the
  case for "it would be even better if ...".  But in effect, yes, one's
  opinion of all features of something one has chosen to work with and
  wishes to become proficient and productive in should all be on the
  positive side.  That does mean that one has to defend them all or that
  one does not prefer one way over another, perhaps never using a feature,
  but active dislike is so psychologically destructive that you have people
  constantly complain about it instead of just getting over it and on with
  their lives.  You and Erann Gat keep bad-mouthing Common Lisp all the
  time.  To those who wish to become proficient and productive in Common
  Lisp, this is actually really destructive.  It is like going to a bar
  with your friends and haveing to suffer someone who berates something or
  other about your girlfriend or wife or kids or cat or perhaps your car or
  your job or your house or whatever _all_ the time.  This pisses most
  people off _tremendously_, to the point where people actually resort to
  violence to make the shitheads shut up or leave.  For a community like
  ours, it is like having someone come to a bar regularly only to whine
  about the beer or the hygiene or the furniture or the decorations or the
  bartender or whatever.  That someone would be beaten up if he refused to
  leave the others in peace to enjoy themselves.  Common decency strongly
  suggests that such naysayers and shitheads just get the hell out of the
  place, but for some reason, shitheads like you and Erann Gat keep coming
  to the same bar and keep deriding and denigrating something that a lot of
  the people there actually come there _because_ they like.  Now, to keep
  this metaphor, everybody will appreciate a suggestion to make something
  better if they perceive it to be in good will, i.e., with respect for
  what has already been done, but if your suggestion is not adopted, it is
  very _rude_ to keep suggesting it over and over (no matter how politely
  it has been suggested)  To change the scene a little: If someone should
  argue that your cat would look a lot better with short hair, the only
  appropriate answer is that then it would have to be a different cat.  To
  really make you destructive shitheads realize what you are doing, suppose
  you talked to a black guy in the highly racially sensitized United States
  and told him that he would probably be a much better person if he were
  white.  That probably overstates the case a little, but having you and
  Erann Gat and shitheads like you around here to rag Common Lisp all the
  time is extremely unwelcome.  And the message I keep trying to send to
  you obnoxious assholes is just that: Get the fuck out of here if all you
  come here to do is deride and berate and denigrate the _one_ common
  interest to the people in this forum.  People will generally listen to
  your problems and try to help you if you have a constructive purpose to
  some frustration or other, but if all you want to do is complain that
  what you want to do is not perfectly acceptable and you do not _want_ a
  solution, people _will_ tire of you, some more quickly than others.

  In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none.
  In a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief.