From ... Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!not-for-mail From: Erik Naggum Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Subject: Re: The Next Generation of Lisp Programmers Date: 26 Aug 2002 02:08:08 +0000 Organization: Naggum Software, Oslo, Norway Lines: 116 Message-ID: <3239316488198320@naggum.no> References: <3239282082503601@naggum.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: maud.ifi.uio.no 1030327689 1041 129.240.64.16 (26 Aug 2002 02:08:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ifi.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2002 02:08:09 GMT Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.lisp:38769 * Oleg | Who said proper nesting is intrinsically a good thing, silly rules made up | by mortals notwithstanding? It is not the proper nesting that is the problem. It is the infinitely stupid separation of start- and end-tags. If you wrote @bold{foo} instead of foo, you would not even /want/ to say @bold{foo @italic{bar} zot} if you expected to get foo in bold, zot in italic, and bar in both. The stupidity of foobarzot is not in nesting, it is in the moronic syntax. I related my discovery that syntax matters when I had worked with SGML for half a decade. It is because of the stupid syntax of SGML that things turn bad when people try to use it. It is not because of some highly abstract concept such as proper nesting, which people do not, in fact, understand without serious mental effort. (The reason many people do not understand Lisp but prefer multiple layers of different colors and shapes as they move up the abstraction ladder is very closely releated to this. In nature, things that really are the same look different to us because we have a really hard time abstracting away physical size, and it sometimes takes genius to discover the counter-intuitive role that /scaling/ has in human understanding.) The otherwise pretty smart people who dreamt up generalized markup (which is itself an important abstraction that few people have made independently) made a very serious mistake in making "tags" independent constructs of the element. Yes, abstract elements have starts and ends, but it is a serious mistake to make both sides verbose and explicit. (The reason many people do not understand Lisp but prefer murky syntaxes where the edges are intuited instead of made explicit is also related to this lack of natural ability to deal with explicit edges. We seem to prefer the wrong kind of simplicity naturally, or find the wrong kind of simplicity too rewarding at too early an age, and people who refuse to think about things tend to go very wrong. For instance, people generally think that 2+2 is 4. But it is not. It is only when this expression is explicitly delimited from side-effects that the simple folk understanding holds. (+ 2 2) is always 4. In 3*2+2, 2+2 is definitely not 4, and it would be wrong to think about 2+2 to begin with. Most people wil recognize that the edges have moved in this expression, but fail to understand the power of explicit edges because they think they can always see them, just like stupid people for /ages/ (not just after computers arrived on the scene) have thought that they could omit the century in dates because nothing would ever last longer than 100 years. Old and ancient works of art often contain the day, month, and year of the century, but you have to make some highly educated guesses as to which century because stupid people have thought the edges of the century needed not be specified. It is wrong to give stupid people the means to hurt themselves. Verbose, explicit start- and end-tags can only cause harm when stupid people use them, and when it comes to entering text for text processing applications, otherwise smart people often turn into vegetables because they think the problems that text processing presents are /stupid problems/ that are below them.) When you give people verbose, explicit edges of elements, they will think of them the wrong way. It is not proper nesting that they do not understand. It is the fact that they see a kind of different edges than the syntax wants to represent. This is not a problem unless you are anal-retentive about a different kind of edges. If you wanted to make proper nesting work, you would make it very, very hard to make mistakes, such as by using the exact same terminator of all elements and make sure that you could not possibly mistake a start or end for anything else. If you want people who see the wrong kind of edges to learn to deal with it, you must present them with an incentive to do so, not an incentive to break your rules. This is how syntax matters. This is why people do amazingly stupid things in languages with ugly syntaxes and behave rationally and write more elegant code when the syntax is more elegant. I find it ridiculous and evidence of a massive lack of understanding of the world they live in when someone argues /in a newsgroup for Lisp/ against proper nesting as intrinsically a good thing. Of /course/ proper nesting is intrinsically a good thing! It is simply how things are structured in this world. If you fail to understand this, what /are/ you doing with Lisp? However, when it comes to font changes in documents, there is no point in making the edges visible to the user exactly as found in the /underlying/ structure. I write *bold* and /italic/ and _underline_ and `fixed´ in Gnus, for instance, and I think this is the right thing. Whatever the underlying representation, the user interface can do me the favor of showing me bold and italic and special characters properly. There is no point in forcing this on people, just as one would normally store a paragraph as one line of text, but show it as broken at the right margin by word boundaries. Then, whatever the proper way to represent bold and italic internally, the user would not need to be aware of it. WYSIWYG works great for the lowest level of information structuring, where we have become used to visual clues. Punctuation, capitalization, italics, paragraph breaks, etc, all live at the same conceptual level -- different from almost everything else. It is wrong for a markup language to force people to do weird things at this level. If you /understand/ proper nesting, there is no problem. If you do not want to understand it further than you already have, that will be evidenced in the choice of a verbose end-tag and tags that close at the wrong point as seen by the user. Whether you use \i{foo} or @i{foo} or does not matter much, but using foo is a major disaster as far as teaching the users the value of structuring information is concerned. In many important ways, SGML is its own worst enemy. It has managed to teach information structuring completely backwards. Instead of making the edges explicit but non-intrusive as in Common Lisp, the edges are much too visible and verbose with the stupid tags that very quickly consume more of the large volume of characters in SGML/XML documents than the contents. I am sure it was thought of as useful back when people needed to be converted, but once converted, it gets in the way more than anything else and leads people to make mistakes if they do not think very carefully about what they try to do. Most people would rather die than think, in fact, many do, so if one wishes to teach information structuring, it must be made conducive to accomplish people's fairly immediate goals. SGML fails miserably in this regard. Once you understand the concepts, SGML is harder than any of the alternatives. And if you do not understand the concepts, SGML is harder than any of the alternatives. Only when you are beginning to cross the border between not understanding and understanding does SGML offer something of significant value -- that is, as long as you think all these tags are kind of cool and typing markup is great idea. This interim stage should pass fairly quickly unless you are working specifically with the languages. (That was my excuse...) -- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.