Subject: Re: Understanding Erik Naggum From: Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no> Date: 04 Oct 2002 19:58:30 +0000 Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Message-ID: <3242750310920971_-_@naggum.no> * Fred Gilham | I think it might be a public service to make the following point. However tasteless it is to use names in the Subject, this was a pretty good summary, actually. That is probably a first in and of itself. | He does not consider civility a goal in and of itself [...] Quite right. I actually cannot stand people who are polite and civil but have nothing whatsoever to communicate or accomplish with it. Civility is a protocol to get something done in a situation where people need to feel good about themselves. It is vitally important when you want to get those things done that require it. However, your "feeling good" is not something you can require other people to cater to without having a clear purpose to the exchange in the first place. | Erik doesn't care if he's liked and accepted. Yes, I do, but I do not seek a professional, technical forum about (Common) Lisp to be liked and accepted. If I do not find myself liked and accepted, I, too, feel unhappy, and I am actually quite hurt by the numerous evil people who do nothing on this newsgroup but attack me. What the fuck do they think this forum is for? Take them away, and there is /very/ little hostile traffic in this newsgroup. And I do /not/ start whatever remains. Just look at the recent number of assholes who had to opine about me. So, yes, I care very much when these assholes fill the newsgroup with hate rhetoric. However, it is more correct that I do not think being liked and accepted should take predence to technical matters /in a technical forum/. It would be inconceivable for me to say "I like you as a person, but you post misinformation about Common Lisp in comp.lang.lisp". I think that would be about as likely as a stock broker saying "I like you as a person, but you give your customers really bad stock advice", or a priest saying to another "I really like you as a person, but could you please cut down on murdering abortion doctors?" | He would like to be respected, but even then he doesn't care if he's not | respected by people he doesn't respect. It is because I fundamentally respect people that I think they should listen. However, I find that the disrespect that people resort to when they do not "feel good" is quite alarming. | You can call this arrogance, ego or whatever you want. I do not care much what people call it, but I fail to see how ranking being liked and accepted and resepcted lower than technical merits can be called ego, though. In other words, I expect to be liked, accepted and respected for on technical merit /in a technical forum/. | If, on the other hand, you were to convince Erik that something he said | were technically incorrect, that would make a difference. I've seen it | before: he admits his error. I appreciate that at least someone sees this. | In other words, Erik's values are not yours. This sounds a little too general. I have found a lot more people who share my values that do not. Very few people actually stand up and say they prefer a forum of civil and polite idiots to a forum of sometimes quarreling experts, and for the newbie who wants to learn and seeks help, fora that are rife with polite idiots who give bad advice is really not something you know how much you will hate until you experience it. | I personally would prefer that he had different values; I regret very | much his chronic feuds with Erann Gat, for example. I havea no idea why Erann thinks this forum is a suitable place to spew accusations against me and post so much poisonous bile. What does that fucking moron expect to /achieve/? That shithead is purely destructive. | You know how much you value civility by finding out when you are willing | to abandon it. Glad to see someone else make this point. I have argued strongly that if your ethical standards are abandoned when you deal with people you do feel "enough" sympathy or empathy with, they are worthless. The great invention of "due process" is precisely that which treats people with a fundamental /respect/ regardless of what they have /done/. I really try to do this myself, but I find that even knowledge of the legal system and appreciation of the concept of due process is /missing/ in people who waste no opportunity to attack me, unfairly, unjustly, and most of all for things they /invent/ and which I have never done. False accusations is the ultimate disrespect. But I can't quite get over seeing such an inflammatory Subject line above such accurate contents. -- Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder. Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.