Subject: Re: Java is really convenient. Re: Sun thinks about switching Java to S-expression syntax: Lava
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 1999/02/17
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Erik Naggum <>
| offers Allegro CL Lite to any stray comer.  includes IDE.
| (but use LOAD-COMPILED instead of COMPILE-FILE and LOAD.)

* (Christopher R. Barry)
| It's crippled, and you must pay if you want to use it commercially.

  sigh.  what _are_ the other crippled features of this version?  that you
  can't use it for a full-fledged commercial projects?  why do you expect
  to be able to do that?  the Java freebies are _marketing_ stunts, not
  technical arguments.  do you have any idea how much money has been sunk
  into Java and when the break-even time is expected to be?  do you not
  realize that it is an instrument of mass market destruction to reduce
  Microsoft's hegemony and that Common Lisp doesn't fight that kind of wars?

  and I find it slightly amusing that you, too, keep adding conditions that
  make you not choose Common Lisp, no matter how people answer your gripes.

| I would feel dishonest if I contacted Franz about getting an evaluation
| copy of CLIM. I know that no matter how much I liked it, I could not at
| this point in my life afford it.

  yeah, and I'm sure this is CLIM's fault.  you said "Swing, unlike CLIM,
  doesn't cost $4000-$7000 to even try out on Unix."  which was an outright
  lie, so now you would feel dishonest if you asked for a demo version, but
  you didn't feel dishonest when you lied to begin with?

| It would be nice if it could be obtained under the same terms as the
| Allegro CL Linux Trial Edition, where you can use it as long as you like,
| and not feel obligated to purchase it.

  you can't use it as long as you like.  can't you even read licenses?
  (yeah, I'm expecting another silly gripe, now.)

  you clearly confused what "would be nice" with what people think they
  might one day be able to profit from providing you.  there ain't no such
  thing as a free lunch, remember?

| After having been able to use Allegro CL so extensively, I know that at
| some point in the future I would definately buy it if using Common Lisp
| for a big project.

  good for you.  I won't hold my breath.

| When it comes down to it, I still _definitely_ do not prefer Java over CL.

  are you desperate for reasons to use Common Lisp?   is that why you bitch
  and moan and invent "flaw" after "flaw" as your previous "flaws" have
  proven not to be flaws?  it sure doesn't look constructive to me.

| There are a number of things that Java gets right though, like knowing
| how to actually get a little mind share.

  yes, by lying, overstating, hyping, misrepresenting the facts, etc.
  somehow, I prefer to buy from Common Lisp sales people, not used car
  sales people who jumped on the Java bandwagon.

| Well, certainly not disgusted yet....

  you will, and the company that'll bring you to it: AT&T.¹

¹ sorry if the ad spoofed on is a little old.