Subject: Re: Java is really convenient. Re: Sun thinks about switching Java 	 to S-expression syntax: Lava
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 1999/02/17
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* (Christopher R. Barry)
| Isn't this kinda like prototyping or "throwing the first one away", a
| practice that as far as I know you do not believe in?  But, I'm really
| liking your advice so far.

  there's a nuance here that seems to get lost all the time.  first, some
  people _believe_ in prototyping (in another language), i.e., they do it
  whether it makes sense or not.  sometimes, it makes sense to do it.
  second, "throwing the first version away" is something you do if you need
  to, not something you should out to do, because then you'll end up maybe
  having to throw the second version away, too.

  my argument against what you're doing is that you involve yourself in
  low-level stuff long before you know how to do either low-level or
  high-level stuff.  you will learn the wrong thing from this experiment
  and will retain whatever was reasonably simple to implement, not what is
  good design.  simplifying the design is sometimes necessary when the cost
  of implementing it proves too costly.  if you implement it in one of the
  environments at a time, you may call it prototyping.  if you implement it
  in both, you're trying to evolve production code.  this will fail.

| I was imagining being able to do this in an CL though kinda like with
| Java, "imagining" being the operative word.  Sigh.

  well, maybe Java has a place in the grand order of things, but to make
  Java really work, I want serious protocol engine support, since the Java
  applet is going to talk to a server, and it'd be nice if that was using a
  reasonably standard protocol.  as far as I know, CORBA support is not
  "standard" in Java, and despite it's cost and the introduction of yet
  another language (IDL) is the most promising way to deal with this mess.