Subject: Re: Servlets in CL
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 2000/05/17
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* David Hanley <>
| And, while some may be willing to pay their fees, other clearly are
| not.  Do you see lisp dominating the PC market?  Lisp hasn't taken
| over, and there's a short list of potential reasons.

  What else do you know about that is not dominating the PC market?

| I know you like them and are unable to be objective on this subject,

  Wrong.  I'm not you, so you should be careful about extrapolating
  your own problems with being objective to me and others.
| but despite the very high startup costs to get the environment, you
| must also pay a substantial percentage of your gross profits when
| you distribute software written with their product.

  I know their policies better than you do (partly because I argue
  with Franz Inc over them all the time :) and I can tell you this:
  You do not get a right to post hurtful lies about people just
  because you disagree with them.  If you had to pay for the cost of
  recovering from people believing your lies, you would be run into
  the ground financially.  Relax and make the effort to engage your
  _brain_ when you read the license.  Above all, don't let emotional
  responses like "they're taking my food money!" overpower your
  reading skills and comprehension.  Franz Inc is _not_ the IRS.

| Also, there will be high fees if you run a server written with their
| product.  For the kinds of software it seems you do, these may not
| be major roadblocks.  For what I want to do, it's basically
| unacceptable.

  Your behavior towards me now and towards Franz Inc is unacceptable
  no matter how free it is, so clearly, money is _not_ an issue for
  you to behave morally reprehensibly.  Guess what: Other people don't
  change their behavior when they start to charge money for it, either.

| No, eric, what's stupid is your desire to defend something which is
| working for you in particular, while it may be good for you, and not
| good for someone else.

  That's "Erik".  I'm not _defending_ anything, I'm deflecting unfair
  criticism.  These are two very different tasks, but only people who
  care about fairness realize the fundamental difference.  I was
  showing you that being unilateral in such an issue is bad, but that
  was also before I knew what kind of person you are: You're the kind
  of person who thinks that when you work with or like someone, you
  lose your objectivity and you start to defend them as people, no
  matter what they _do_.  In my eyes, that means you are not the kind
  of person _anyone_ should be working with.  (Which also explains why
  you can't afford to pay for a license, but I digress.)

| I have as much right to point out problems with pricing and
| distribution fees as you have to insult people for asking reasonable
| questions.

  But you think you have much wider rights to insult people than I
  ever _imagined_ I had!  I don't protest your right to point out
  problems.  I point out a problem with the way you did it: That when
  you do so in unilateral ways, you're setting yourself up to be shot
  down because you're _unfair_ in your criticism.  I crack down on
  unfairness wherever and whenever I see it and I think I can make a
  difference and whoever the perpetrator is, even when it's our
  beloved government.  However, I think it's crucial to be fair when
  cracking down on unfairness and so I crack down publicly when the
  unfairness is public and privately when it is unfairness is private.
  Being unfair in public because of private gripes about pricing or
  policy is simply _unacceptable_.  (No, it doesn't matter what you
  think _I'm_ doing.  _You_ don't get better by finding somebody else
  you can throw dirt at.)

| > Your demands as a cheap customer is just as
| >   "unworkable" to a vendor as you think their pricing is to you.  This
| >   goes for _everything_ in _any_ market.
| That's a pretty stupid statement ( again ).

  You're proving to me that you're seriously lacking in objectivity,
  which is probably why you think others have to be similarly
  crippled.  Why are you hurting yourself by proving this?

| In fact, franz is the only compiler vendor which I can think of off
| hand which requires distribution fees for apps compiled with their
| product.

  What you can think of off hand or not is really nobody's business
  when you are as unable to think as you have demonstrated so far.

| I didn't get their stuff largely because of their pricing structure,
| which is my right for anything_in_any_market. :)

  Of course it is.  But you're doing the sour grapes thing by slamming
  the people whose products you didn't want to buy, and that is _not_
  a right you have or can assume will be defended.  If you don't want
  a product, actually _go_ elsewhere, don't linger and pout, OK?

  FWIW, I'm in constant talks with Franz Inc about ways to minimize
  the cost of licensing for small clients until they make real money.
  I have one customer who thinks just having to _discuss_ licensing
  terms is a serious turn-off, while money is not: They're paying
  _much_ more to Oracle for their database application and the ODBC
  drivers cost an arm and a leg, too.  My biggest client is a serious
  Sun and Oracle outfit and the Franz Inc license costs are not even a
  blip in the budget.  And we're already paying 50 times these costs a
  year to Microsoft for _their_ software and various development tools.

  So I wonder: Who do you people think you're kidding?  Business costs
  are supposed to be passed on to the _custumers_, and if not, to be
  assumed by your shareholders or other investors when you fold or get
  acquired by (more) competent people.  You're supposed to make money
  by being cleverer than the average bear, not lose it.  If you can't
  make enough money to pay a license fee, that means not even your
  _investors_ believe in you!  Don't take that out on Franz Inc, for
  crying out loud.

  What the software industry lacks is an easy way to go from hobbyist
  to real software developer in outfits that have real money to spend.
  As it is, we're looking at a very serious change of mindset and that
  will necessarily create much needless hostility, but when people who
  tend towards unfairness as a solution to their problems think they
  have a _right_ to engage in it because they disagree over pricing or
  licensing terms, there is no hope that they will grow a clue in the
  foreseeable future, either.

  If this is not what you expected, please alter your expectations.