Subject: Re: ACL 6.0 Trial Edition ships with non ANSI reader behavior.
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 08 Nov 2000 00:59:21 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* John Foderaro <>
| No matter which Common Lisp you use, you are using a Common Lisp
| that has extended the ANSI standard.

  Nobody argues against this.  It's the decision to _break_ the
  standard that is under attack, not the decision to extend it.
  Why don't you get it?

| So we have extended Common Lisp to support a Modern mode.

  But lie about the readtable-case, ignore requests to change it, and
  consequently break the standard.  It's the breaking that is wrong,
  not the extending.  What does it _take_ to make you realize what the
  issue is, John?

| You don't have to use this extension just like you don't have to
| use any other extension.

  Not so.  If I want that extention, I must accept that readtable-case
  is no longer working.  That's the crucial difference.

| case sensitivity is and always has been a very sensitive topic
| for reasons I don't understand.

  Well, it is apparently very sensitive to you, while others tend to
  think that you're highly irrational for it, since it isn't to them:
  They just invoke the proper functions to get it, and that's it.  To
  you, it's apparently a major issue of language design fundamentals.

  Is it that you don't understand why people don't accept your views?
  Well, it _could_ be because you don't care what theirs are.

| Lots of people don't like the loop macro but no one has ever
| suggested that we engineer Lisp so that the loop macro can never run
| in it.  However that  was not the case for case sensitivity.

  So why _do_ you break readtable-case?

| So there will always be people who hate case sensitivity and see
| no need for it.

  No, John, that is just not the case.  Case sensitivity is an option
  in ANSI Common Lisp today.  I want that, but I also want the option
  of case insensitivity, and it's _you_ who don't wamt to give it to
  me (unless I take unfair advantage of my superior knowledge of the
  system and nuke an internal variable).  It is you who hate case
  internal and see no need for it.  Don't blame others for this.

| Those people can just build the ANSI image.

  And if they wanted lower-case symbol names, too?  Sorry, John, but
  you've just plain lost it.  I want _both_ lower-case symbols _and_
  case insensitivity, but you're the beliggerent jerk who don't want
  me to have that, and you break the standard so I can't get it.

| What I'd like to see is people who might find Modern mode
| interesting give the Modern mode a try and give us feedback.
| We've had one piece of feedback that readtable-case should be
| active.  I'd like to hear about experiences from others.    We've
| got a system that works but we're willing to change it if that will
| increase the usefullness of it and if will convince other
| implementors of Common Lisp to include the Modern mode extension.

  Well, I suppose I should be happy that you have finally _noticed_
  the feedback, but I'm not.  You're asking people to vote on whether
  you should uphold a standard or not.  That's somewhat like voting to
  dismantle the entire government and go into anarchy.  If you're for
  anarchy, just do it.  There's no need to have any vote on it first.
  Just publicly declare that Franz Inc is no longer in the business of
  selling a _conforming_ Common Lisp system, and nobody would bitch at
  you, anymore.  They probably wouldn't buy from you, either, but
  that's at least an _honest_ and principled exchange of ideas.  What
  you're doing now is lie to us all, break the standard gratuitously
  and signal that you consider conformance a question of public polls.

| - john foderaro
|   modern mode cult leader

  Geez.  You really think this cult crap is funny.

  Does anyone remember where I parked Air Force One?
                                   -- George W. Bush