Subject: Re: array types
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:47:35 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Barry Margolin
> Are we talking about different things?  I was talking about initializing
> the variable, not the contents of the object that it refers to.

  Yes, that is the point of difference and the reason one is called binding
  and the other is called initialization.  Programming languages that treat
  their lexical variables as data storage perpetuate the notion that they
  take space of the same kind as data storage in objects.  There are some
  very important differences that make them worthy of different concepts.
  You always bind a variable to an object, but you may initialize an object
  with some other data.  If you just allocate space for something in a
  variable, that may just not be good coding style.  Several languages have
  made it so much easier in recent years to have lexical variables defined
  where they are first needed, but I think (Common) Lisp was there first,
  although we do have support for variables-as-temporary-data-storage, too,
  like many other things that _sometimes_ come in handy, despite general
  rules to the contrary.

> You manage to read hatred into whatever I write.

  I read you to want the general public to applaud you moral superiority
  over me, because you could behave like a normal human being and actually
  manage to be to the point and _not_ attack me out of the blue, as opposed
  to me, whom you expect to slaughter you in response, but what did you do
  in that last paragraph?  You went out of your wray to depict me as
  someone who _will_ respond hostilely to absolutely _anything_, while
  wearing a halo and a smirk as _you_ say it.  Hatred takes many forms.
  The kind of holier-than-thou disrespect you simply cannot help yourself
  from spewing is one form that several other (groups of) people who have
  experienced systematic hatred know all too well, and not surprisingly,
  those who have built their hatred into their personality, do not even
  recognize it when they show it to people.

  It is blindingly obvious that you hate _me_, but I only hate what you
  keep _doing_ to me.  If you simply _stopped_ your insane need to paint me
  as the devil himself, maybe you would be treated as something other than
  the insanely hateful person you continue to look like.  It does not take
  much: Simply _refrain_ from accusing people, directly or indirectly, of
  things they have not even done, and especially not _yet_.

> I didn't write that because I hate you, I wrote it because I was *scared*
> of you, since no matter what I write you always manage to turn it into a
> sign of hatred.

  Just behave.  You do not have to point out that you have behaved and
  imply that others have not before they had a chance to do anything.  If
  you poke people in the eye and say "look, I did not kill you, but God
  knows what someone like _you_ will do next", what do you _expect_?

  Well, one way is to show you the same kind of _disrespect_ you show
  others and exclaim extactically that "look, everybody, Barry Margolin is
  so happy he can actually behave like a normal human being that he must
  tell us and virtually asks us all to applaud him!  HOORAY for Barry!",
  but I somehow maintain that respectful behavior towards others is the
  baseline.  That is why I keep getting angry at people like you who seem
  unable to deal with others respectfully no matter _what_ they do to you.

> I just can't win.

  Yes, you can.  That you have failed to figure it out, frankly amazes me.
  Just make an effort to treat people _fairly_ and _respectfully_ when they
  have, in fact, not attacked you.  As long as you keep doing your moral
  superiority stunt, expect hostile response.  Try it with other people and
  see if _maybe_ it is how you behave that is the cause.  How would _you_
  react if someone took every opportunity to imply that you were insane or
  at the very least a very, very bad person, no matter what they did?  If
  you feel like you "just can't win", just _try_ to imagine how you have
  _purposefully_ made me feel for the longest time!  If you do not like it
  happening to yourself, consider the fact that you have other options than
  constantly doing it to somebody else.

  Just behave, Barry Margolin.  You do not need to tell anyone and you most
  certainly do not need to be applauded for it when you accomplish it.  I
  assume that you are sufficiently smart to figure out that if you insult
  people, you will not be treated nicely in return.  I assume, however,
  that you are not _willing_ to consider the fact that you insult people
  with your moral superiority stunts and your disrespectfulness because
  something (probably a bad religion) tells you that you have the _right_
  to do that to other people.  I know from the past that you have a very
  hard time actually dealing with people based on what they do -- you have
  been guilty several times in the past of not even being able to _see_
  what people are doing, but have imputed evil to their intentions no
  matter what you actually see.  You should have recognized it, since you
  have done it to me for years, much like some of the other kooks here who
  have a hard time dealing with reality, but somehow that moral superority
  of yours have kept you from realizing it.  Look at your own behavior and
  see if you would let _me_ "win".  You _know_ that I let people off the
  hook if they stop doing the _specific_ things I criticize them for, but
  you keep being _unspecific_ and _not_ letting me off the hook.  Do you
  need to be treated the same before you realize what you are doing, or are
  you smart enough to figure it out on your own?  It is your choice.

  You are among the most _unfair_ people I have had the displeasure of
  dealing with, Barry Margolin, and it will take me some time to recover
  from the hostility I feel towards you and expect from you, which you have
  managed to inflame _again_, out of nowhere.  I _never_ know when you will
  come out of nowhere and attack me brutally for things I have not even
  _done_.  You could at least have confined yourself to stuff I _have_ done
  -- any sane person can always find something _real_ to attack in another
  person if he wants to, but the insane need to invent evil that is not
  there.  Since you have done the latter towards me for a _very_ long time,
  I assume it will require massive effort on your part to disestablish this
  vile habit of yours.  I wish you the best of look, though.  It sure will
  be eaiser to deal with you if you can deal with me as a _person_, and not
  the scary monster you appear to see when you just see my name.

  There is nothing in this message that under normal circumstances should
  cause Barry Margolin to announce his moral superiority over others, but
  one never knows how he needs to behave to maintain his belief in it.