From ... Path: archiver1.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!npeer.kpnqwest.net!nreader1.kpnqwest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Subject: Re: Apprenticeship [was Re: So, where's the "Javadoc" for COMMON Lisp?] References: <3B544F2D.2D2B5B99@rchland.vnet.ibm.com> <9j20j2$ifl$2@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <3204451328338331@naggum.net> <3204466420985118@naggum.net> <3204559306178592@naggum.net> <3B5AF9AB.EE8C0F63@isomedia.com> <3204808398598543@naggum.net> <9jupus$mt3$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> <3B657BF7.DF7CD3A@removeme.gst.com> <9khuag$61v$3@fstgss02.tu-graz.ac.at> <808zgz7y4j.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain> Mail-Copies-To: never From: Erik Naggum Message-ID: <3206013278040666@naggum.net> Organization: Naggum Software, Oslo, Norway Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 15:14:42 GMT X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@Norway.EU.net X-Trace: nreader1.kpnqwest.net 997024482 193.71.66.49 (Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:14:42 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:14:42 MET DST Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.lisp:14015 * Peter Wood > If the above is true[2] (even if only in part) it would help to explain > the *relative* lack of support for the principles of Free software in the > lisp community. I have no idea about the numbers, but I think it's a > safe bet that there is a relationship between the year(s) of origin of a > language and the present day level of support for Free software in that > language's community. Who are the people who think that free software is beneficial to them? Who are the people who believe that creating free software is beneficial? What are the kinds of software that are created and distibuted for free? How old and mature are the people who want and create free software? Can free software people learn to live with something that is broken, or do they have this _need_ to fix everything that could be improved, given enough free resources? How do people who create and distribute free software pay their bills? What do people who create and distribute free software hope to achieve, if not the recognition that someday results in getting "enough" money? What if Common Lisp people think of themselves and others in different value terms than young impatient punks who would rather fix something on their own in their own way than ask somebody more competent to do it? What if the idea that you should modify the source code is an expression of the arrogance of youth that you know everything better than everybody else and that you discover that this is in fact wrong only after you have done a lot of really hard programming so you know that programming is not that simple, easy task, anymore? What if you discover that getting anything _right_ is so difficult that you actually want to get paid very well if you are among the few can do it? If you are in that position, why would you want to _use_ whatever somebody gives away for free to _everybody_, obviously not realizing its value to either himself or anyone else? The simple answers that people who generally do not ask hard questions come up with are generally wrong. Free software is the intended solution to a perceived problem. Is the problem real? Is the solution able to do something about it? Once it has been tried for a while, has anything actually _changed_? These are uncomfortable questions. They should have been asked long ago. I think the lack of interest in free software in the Common Lisp world is a sign that Common Lisp people value their time. This could be true for such a simple reason as their higher age than those who get excited by the next new language to reinvent everything from scratch. It could also be because Common Lisp attracts people who have become seriously tired of all the bad languages out there that offer nothing but more work to solve the same old problems. ///