Subject: Re: Unwelcome mail from the stalkers
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:41:04 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* "Wade Humeniuk" <>
| Erik, are you really calling Jean-François a psychopath, as in the actual
| psychiatric diagnosis?  It is serious matter.

  Yes, it is a serious matter.  You can tell a psychopath by how they react
  to humiliation -- while normal people get angry and may _want_ to hit
  back, a psychopath has his whole raison d'être threatened and turns into
  an extremely vicious and violent attacker and he cannot control himself.
  Everything is somebody else's fault, and they are unable to look at their
  own reactions as contributing to the situation.  What really told me that
  Jean-François Brouillet is a certifiable psychopath was his attempt at
  conditional apologies.  Before children develop a sense of personal
  responsibility, they believe that the _only_ measure properly dealing
  with the world is that which makes them "feel good" (which is more
  internal then hedonism).  Young children lack long-term goals and have no
  realistic sense of planning,  This is the developmental stage that
  psychopaths never get past.  Members of the so-called "me generation"
  exhibit a lot of personality traits that (more) social generations have
  found to be fundamental to sociopathic personality disorders.  The
  ultimate sociopath is one who forces others to obey his will in order to
  make him feel good about himself, which is generally not possible without
  the approval of others, whether they are forced into that position or
  not.  Grasping the concept of "society" usually takes more than 20 years
  in a well-developed society, which is why the voting age was set to 21
  until it was lowered, amazingly, to 18 in 1971 in the U.S., despite much
  evidence of pandemic failure to grasp what a society means for people
  that young.  The concept of "self-esteem" usually takes even longer to
  develop as distinct from "I feel good about me".  Then there is the very
  difficult concept of one's private and public person which has been
  eroded dramatically in the past 10 years by the media, and people who
  have not had a chance to develop properly will feel invaded all the time.
| I listened to a radio program with Dr. Robert Hare about psychopaths/
| sociopath and how they may be more prevalent in society than we know.

  Any person who manages to control other people's behavior exhibits many
  "psychopathic" personality traits.  However, the best criterion is
  whether they can cope with and obey rules set by others.  A psychopath
  exhibits an almost complete lack of respect for the rule of law and legal
  procedures that are put in place to prevent individual feelings of hate
  and revenge from taking over, and has serious personal problems with the
  police or indeed any other authority.  If they cannot _be_ the authority,
  they turn very hostile, and they are known to fight any authority at all
  simply because it is there and is not them.

| He contended that not all psychopaths exhibited violent behavior, but
| many lived actively in society.

  If a psychopath is not challenged, he would only seem eager and maybe
  aggressive in reaching power.  However, actually setting and working
  towards long-terms goals and overcoming setbacks and problems is highly
  incompatible with the psychopath's personality.  Anyone who has been able
  to work towards something for a long time through serious setbacks, is
  most probably in the clear.  But if setbacks are somebody else's fault
  and the universe in general is basically "against" someone, watch out.
  The ability to accept responsbility for one's own actions and deal with
  setbacks rationally is vital to the mature human being.  Psychopaths lack
  both abilities.

| It also said that psychopaths have little real feelings and do not cry or
| laugh as a real response, but as a calculated learned behavior.  For
| example they see a car accident and the crying and emotions that are
| displayed.  They go home and practice the facial gestures, sounds and
| crying in the mirror.  When they think it is appropriate, they display
| the emotion without any of the actual feelings, often getting it wrong.
| From the little I know, trying to get a psychopath to feel something is
| useless.

  Well, I disagree, and so does the literature.  A psychopath lacks
  empathy, not feelings.  Where normal people feel great, even happy, when
  they feel efficacious and feel that they are in control on their long-
  term journey towards their larger goals in life, a psychopath would feel
  great about being able to manipulate and control others.  Simply put, a
  normal person needs to understand and deal with reality directly and
  feels good about his efficacy in this regard, a psychopath needs to
  understand and deal with people and feels good only to the extent that he
  can make other people do his bidding.

| I have certainly met psychopaths (and am beginning to think they are
| common) and quickly get out their way.  Personally I am also have the
| opinion one can have psychopathic tendencies to one extent or the other.

  The normal check-list has 40 points.  If you score below 15, you are
  basically a spineless wimp who would be the ideal control object for
  someone with a score above 30.  Being emotionally shallow is certainly
  worth a few points, but such people can just be really unintelligent.

| (Who hasn't acted in a less then virtuous manner?)

  That is not really the point.  The point is whether you (1) understand
  that you broke some general laws, regulations, or rules that apply to
  _all_ people, not just "the others", and (2) cared only about your own
  immediate gratification.  Some classify anyone who is willing to
  sacrifice others for their own emotional well-being as psychopaths.

| I also think its coming out into the open now and will become a big
| societal issue.

  The "me generation" is exhibiting a lot more problems than any previous
  generation in this regard, for two particular reasons: (1) they were not
  required to mature and think about society and what it means to work and
  live in cooperation and collaboration with other people, and (2) they
  have discarded religion, which traditionally has been a very strong
  enforcer of the idea that "there is a higher power than me".  (For this
  reason, many religious leaders have been fantastically evil through the
  ages, and religion is still the most significant motivator for evil, for
  the simple reason that those non-believers are "different from us", which
  has been grounds for hatred since the dawn of mankind.)

| As for Jean-François being a psychopath I am going to have to reserve
| judgement though it seems unlikely to me.  Why would a psychopath engage
| in a conversation in a technical newsgroup?  There does not seem to be
| anything to gain here (perhaps psychopaths need no real reason).

  Oh, just watch him when he requires others to be polite and courteous
  while he is exempt from this law himself.  Watch him when he is so
  immature that he thinks apologies are bargaining chips to make people
  feel good.  What kinds of empathy can Jean-François Brouillet possibly
  possess when he keeps going like he does?  He certainly lacks respect for
  other people.  This is all about how he does not feel good about himself
  because some perceived authority figure does not approve of him.  Watch
  how he calmed down only when Kent Pitman, another authority figure here,
  approved of his view.  Jean-François Brouillet is a text-book example of
  a psychopath.  Watch him come back and attack me viciously as soon as he
  loses the feeling of sufficient approval, despite promises to the
  contrary -- they were absolutely nothing but manipulative in order to
  elevate himself and "duck" me.  A psychopath is really _nothing_ -- he
  has failed to mature beyond the whining child who wants only one thing:
  immediate gratification, he has no long-term plans, and he lacks the
  ability to recover from pain by himself -- he is only what other people
  think about him.  I would give Jean-François Brouillet 40 out of 40.