Subject: Re: Rainer Joswig a sample of the con artists the Common Lisp community produces ( Re: thank you all, but...)
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 11 Aug 2002 22:49:43 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.lisp,comp.object,
Message-ID: <>

* "peter_douglass" <>
| Perhaps I am helping others to become aware of the problem.

  Trust me on this: we do not need more "awareness" of a problem caused almost
  entirely by negative comments from people like yourself.

| I believe my articles are quality articles.


| It is not my intent to drive people away.  It has however been the clear and
| often stated intent of posters in c.l.l to drive people away.

  Wrong.  People like you, however, who do nothing but complain and attack
  people, are not welcome anywhere.  You seem to dislike yourself intensely,
  yet keep going on and on about how wrong people who post negative crap to
  the newsgroup are.  Are you somehow separated from yourself when you make
  these comments?

| I have never demanded anythingn of you or of c.l.l. , nor do I intend to
| demand anything of you, nor of c.l.l.

  You seem to unaware of your own function.

| There is no room for discussing a hostile atmosphere?

  What would the point be with "discussing" it?  Either you want to improve
  it, or you want to blame other people for your own failure to improve it.
  This is no different from anywhere else in real life.  People who complain a
  lot are invariably those who do the least to improve their situation, no
  matter whether they "share" their negative emotions and opinions or not.

| Since when did you become my boss?  How much are you paying me?

  So why are you complaining about the behavior of other people?  Are you /my/
  boss?  I cannot recall being given orders from you that I have violated.
  Who are you, really, to judge other people the way you do when all you do is
  worsen the problem you complain about?

| Among other things I like the peace of mind that comes from posting in
| newsgroups where posters do not suggest murder as a solution to their
| disputes.

  I like the peace of mind that comes knowing that people like you refrain
  from attacking others for past ills that you "remember" and have some
  psychological problem that prevents you from getting over.

| I would be delighted if c.l.l. turned around.

  So stop posting so much negative drivel to the newsgroup!  Quit annoying and
  accusing other people just because you are a hateful, negative person who
  focus on negative developments and stupidly choose to "share" them.

  Clearly, you are not the kind of person to contact if anyone wants to get
  anything turned around, but you would be "delighted"" if someone else did it
  despite your efforts to dertail their work.  How do you know that things
  were not improving before you reared your ugly head and had to gripe and
  accuse people?  (In fact, they were, which is why I get so pissed off by
  people like yourself you will never give anyone a break, but have to "share"
  your stupid opinions based on your own emotional problems.)

| You are confusing criticism of comp.lang.lisp with criticisim of Lisp the
| language.

  So you have clearly not understood anything of what you observe here.

| If people have complained about a hostile atmosphere inside of c.l.l. for
| years, perhaps it is because there actually is a hostile atmosphere inside
| of c.l.l.

  No, all the complaints refer to other complaints that people object to very
  strongly because they are unfair and untrue of the /signal/.  The complaints
  are the /noise/ that the complaints are about.  It takes actually /reading/
  the newsgroup instead of editorializing over it to see this, however.

| > Nobody wants to give something to people who keep whining that nobody
| > gives them anything.  So the first order of business is to get all the
| > naysayers out of the forum.
| In other words, it is your intent to drive people away.  Hmm.  I thought you
| were blaming _me_ for driving people away.

  Are you insane?  I want your breed of negative hatemongerers to get lost so
  we can get back to discuss Common Lisp in our small community without having
  to deal with negative assholes like yourself all the time.  What makes you
  think that you are on-topic in /any/ newsgroup with your kind of negative
  propaganda /about/ newsgroups.  Meta-discussions always lead to hostilities.
  People who cannot figure out the difference between an on-topic discussion
  and an off-topic meta-discussion are the root cause of the problems on /any/
| I have no doubt of this.  However, the people who are left are not
| necessarily representative of the lisp community.

  And why is representativity of the Lisp community interesting or valuable?
  Are you one of those anti-elitists that attack comp.lang.lisp because it has
  a better breed of people?

| > What we instead find is that naysayers and idiots think they have a right
| > to keep posting their negative crap about other people.
| Of course they have that right.

  Then you cannot complain about the atmosphere, Peter Douglas.  You want it
  this way.  I am quite surprised that you have not chimed in on previous wars
  as they seem to be just what you desire out of USENET.  Indeed, it is how
  you spend your time now.  I am trying to make you realize that the noise
  that you complain about comes from people like you who attack a newsgroup
  that works perfectly /except/ for the likes of  you and your "sharing".

| I take no offense at your comments.  However, since they are directed at me,
| I have responded.

  So you are not in control of your own posting behavior, but blame other
  people even for that.  You attacked people here, and then you feel you need
  to respond?  Quit attacking people you do not know for things you do not
  understand!  Hostile cretins like you are the cause of the problems you do
  not like.  Control your own behavior, and things will improve, like magic.

| I was prompted to comment because a post appeared in a newsgroup which I
| read and post to frequently, i.e. comp.object.  That post suggested that
| using common lisp either rotted the brain, or promoted con-artistry.

  But who did that cross-posting?  A known troll and another negative idiot.
  Thaddeus L Olczyk has been a pain in the ass in comp.lang.lisp for some
  time, because he is just as unwilling to understand his own role as you are.
  And imagine responding to a crossp-posted thread with a personal accusation
  in the Subject!  Of /course/ you are part of the problem, Peter Douglas!
  And of /course/ you think you do nothing wrong.  Thaddeus L Olczyk also
  thinks he does nothing wrong, because he also thinks he only "shares"" his
  very negative opinion about one particular person in particular.  Why did
  you take his bait and sink to his level and attack lots of other people,
  too?  What is /wrong/ with you think you post "quality articles" like this?

| I don't doubt that I have an effect.  What I doubt is that my puny effect
| will be even noticable in terms of changing the atmosphere of c.l.l.

  It makes it worse and less rewarding for the duration of your hostile
  campaign against the newsgroup.  It also means that no matter what anyone
  actually does to improve conditions around here, someone like you will
  always come around to pretend that nothing has improved, causing yet more
  negative morons to "share" their emotional problems and hatred.  When you
  know that there are lots of people out there who would love to attack people
  on the newsgroup at any time, it is not conducive to a peaceful, useful
  environment.  You know this, I presume, yet you do your best to make things
  worse and to accuse people of your stupid "impression" of a forum.  What is
  your "impression" of blacks and jews?  Would you care to "share" that. too?

| I have no more belief that I would have a constructive effect upon you, than
| you believe I will have _any_ influence upon yourself.

  I believe you have a destructive influence on people around you.  I believe
  that you "share" your negativity and cause other people grief and pain in
  the course of your life.  You do not see this as a problem, obviously.

| I understand how unwelcome my comments are to you.  I would hardly expect
| you to agree with me.  However, I also understand that you neither own
| usenet, nor own c.l.l.

  Well, neither do you, I take it.  So why do you think that attacking people
  unfairly is better than defending them from your unfair and generalized
  attacks?  People with their head screwed on right realize that no criticism
  will be useful if there is no clear understanding of how to make it go away.
  You and your ilk do not go away with your criticism, but keep coming back no
  matter what anyone does.  This is grossly unfair, but I take it that you are
  just the kind of broken personality that consider your opinion more valuable
  to "share" than promoting fairness and justice.

| Perhaps the "idiots" all see a reallity that you don't.

  Certainly.  That is what makes them idiots.  So, too, with you, who "see""
  things you can hate more easily and clearly than things you can appreciate.

| Again, perhaps the "idiots" who "flock" to criticize the atmosphere in
| c.l.l.  see something you do not.

  No, it is the other way around.  They /only/ see articles they understand,
  like yours, and they feel that their emotional and general coping problems
  can now be voiced in a newsgroup for a programming language.  We have had a
  "discussion" about how to cope with depression and several starving people
  who think that learning Common Lisp will save them, but only if they can use
  a commercial environment without paying for it, and then the Trial or
  Personal Editions that cannot build independent executables are unusable.
  Why these people come to comp.lang.lisp to complain about their fate is hard
  to tell, but it has nothing to do with the programming language, nor with
  the forum's qualities.  Something quite different is going on, and the more
  people think that comp.lang.lisp is the place to go to wax negative about
  the universe in general, the more people like you will have something to
  write about.  And ain't that a bliss.  Peter Douglas, consider your own role.

Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway

Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.