Subject: Re: Rainer Joswig a sample of the con artists the Common Lisp community   produces ( Re: thank you all, but...)
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 12 Aug 2002 06:30:56 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.lisp,comp.object,
Message-ID: <>

* "peter_douglass" <>
| I was indirectly requested to do so by Jochen Schmidt
| news:aj3rvc$cod$

  You seem to shirk from accepting responsiblity for your own actions.

| I still do not believe I am responsible for the demise of c.l.l.

  Why do you exaggerate to something you would obviously not responsible for
  in order to avoid accepting responsiblity for what you have done?  You have
  made things worse, not better.  /Please/ try to understand that you are part
  of the problem you complain about.

| > | The fact that others share this opinion adds credence to the belief that
| > | perhaps there is something to the criticisms that have been raised.
| > No, it /only/ adds credence to the belief that it is acceptable to post
| > such negative meta-comments to the newsgroup.
| No, the fact that many other people have complained about the hostile
| atmosphere of c.l.l. adds credence to the argument that c.l.l. has a hostile
| atmosphere.

  Your stubbornness is becoming pathological.  You are so certain that you are
  right that your mind has shut down and refuses to listen to alternative
  models that have more power to explain the phenomenon than yours.

| If that in some way supports your suspicion, then you and I do not share the
| same rules of logic.

  Of course we don't.  You also think you have been accused of being
  responsible for the demise of comp.lang.lisp when you have only been asked
  to /think/ about your own role in making things worse, not better.

| But why does it happen to c.l.l. so regularly?

  Because people like you are self-propeling negativists who complain about
  people who reject your unfair complaints.  How many times do you have to be
  told this?  Will you only shut up when people agree with you and keep going
  like the madman you certainly look like until people have caved in to your
  hateful, negative weltanschauung?

| II'm sure you don't believe it is true, but the fact that you are plagued by
| people complaining about the atmosphere in c.l.l. lends credence to the
| possibility that you may in fact have such a problem.

  No, it does not.  It lends credence to the acceptability of whining in
  comp.lang.lisp about the atmosphere, which can have multiple causes.  That
  you choose one cause that is consistent with your prejudice speaks volume
  about your ability to reason from your observations, and is consistent with
  your negative and prejudicial attitudes.

| From your point of view, there is nothing wrong.  From my point of view
| there is, and that is why I choose to remain an "outsider" rather than a
| contributor.

  Precisely, you think you are still an outsider even though you post to the
  newsgroup.  You are not.  You cannot be.  If you post, you are part of the
  newsgroup.  You cannot possibly escacpe this, unless, of course, you are
  right: You and I do not share the same rules of logic.

| Yes, it is always newbies' fault.

  Trivially so: People who stay manage to get along.

| Yes, why is that?  Why do people keep picking on c.l.l.?

  Because they read negative articles from people like you and infer that it
  is acceptable to whine in comp.lang.lisp, while it is not acceptable to
  whine in most other newsgroups.

| Let's see.  I've posted 5 times to comp.lang.lisp.  Searching for "Naggum
| group:comp.lang.lisp*" on Google reports "about 10,400".  (and that is
| almost certainly "threads" and not individual posts).  Yet I am responsible
| for the negativity.  If you say so.

  What is wrong with you when you cannot understand that people are not
  presented with the entire production of the newsgroup at once?  People read
  articles that arrive since last time they read news, often daily.  You are
  responsible for your fraction of the volume these given days.  Why are you
  so eager to dodge responsibility for your own actions?  Is it because you
  know that I am right about your destructiveness and bad influence?

| No I have complained about the behavior of others.  I have given specific
| examples, and am willing to supply more if you wish.

  Oh, great!  Let us have examples that nobody has ever seen before that would
  shed light that nobody has ever seen before.  This is a goddamn public
  newsgroup and people observe just the same facts you do.  They just do not
  think they are equally _important_ as you do.  You cannot make people think
  your observations are important just by repeating them.  Why are you such a
  dickweed that you focus on the negative and ignore the positive?  Why are
  you so dependent on portraying other people as bad when you appear to be
  mortally afraid of accepting responsiblity for your own actions?  There is
  something disturbing in your lack of ability to understand your own role.

| You are wrong.  I have not complained about hostile reactions to complaints.

  Those are 99.999% of the volume of negative posts to comp.lang.lisp.  Using
  your stupid metric of total newsgroup volume, which you must approve of,
  there is a vanishingly small amount of negative posts that are not part of
  some idiotic meta-discussion about the newsgroup.

| Since you have posted somewhere on the order of 10,400 posts to
| comp.lang.lisp, what is your role in the hostility?

  Right now, I am trying to defend the newsgroup from yet another unfair
  attack, while you are unfairly attacking people based on your "memory" of
  the articles.  Newsgroup dynamics dictate that you must look at how it
  evolves under various influences.  Your influence is bad at this time, no
  matter who /you/ wish to blame for your own bad behavior.  You make things
  worse, not better.  Why is this so hard for you to accept?  Do you depend on
  believing yoruself to be good, flawless, perfect?  Nobody else does who are
  real people.

| Does your griping add to the problem?

  Why do you again try to switch the attention away from yourself?  Do you
  become a better person if you can find somebody else to blame for your own
  behavior?  I think you become much worse when you cannot accept even a
  smidgen of responsiblity for your own actions and influence and role.

| I have many desires quite unrelated to passing judgement over you.  The fact
| that I have formed an opinion regarding c.l.l. of course pisses you off.
| That's life.  Learn to live with it.

  And I have formed an opinion of you as about as intelligent as your average
  redneck racist, who also enjoys reinforcing his own demented negative
  attitudes about other people based on his "observations" and acting on their
  emotions withtout thinking and really enjoys "sharing" them with others.  I
  do not want retarded racists to succeed in unfairly portraying good people
  as bad the way you do, when they are clearly causing the problems.  People
  like you, however, will never realize that you do something wrong.  That is
  one of the tragedies of racism and similar mental illnesses.  We may have to
  live with it, but we do not have to /accept/ people like you or your views.

Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway

Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.