Subject: Re: The toxicity of trolls
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 26 Sep 2002 04:18:44 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Kenny Tilton
| Compassion will then arise in anyone at all mentally well.

  I think I understand your problem.  Please let me know how I help you.

| Self-justifying fiction.

  I see your pain, but I cannot share it.  Would you like to help me understand
  what made you make this hurtful statement?

| Abuse only makes them dig their heels in further, becoming more and more
| attached to their delusion/confusion with each exchange.

  Somewhere along the line here you managed to read "abuse" where no such
  intent was present in the articles you read.  I can see that your sensitivity
  towards "abusive" people has caused you to see them where they do not really
  exist, but it is difficult for me to sympathize with you when you think in
  such openly hostile terms.  Please reduce your hostility towards other people
  and do not accuse them of favoring abuse.  Try to understand what they meant,
  and try to see that as different from what caused you to feel pain.

| They do /not/ miraculously discover their own confusion (what a concept!)
| and seek help, they sink in deeper.

  You are so patronizing towards these suffering people.  Why do you speak on
  their behalf with such authority when you seem to want to evoke compassion?
  Your confused and self-contradictory verbalizations indicate that you both
  want to protect and to control a lower class of people than yourself.  "They"
  are no longer subject to their own willpower, but need your assistance.  The
  problem with this is that you replace compassion with a desire to manipulate
  other people.  You treat a whole class of people with a single statement that
  shows that you actually harbor dehumanizing resentment towards them.  Again,
  I can sense your pain and your desire to protect others from your own painful
  experiences, but really, you should trust each individual to cope with his
  own set of experiences on an individual basis.  While some clearly would sink
  deeper into whatever psychosis they suffer from, many others essentially wait
  for somebody to give them a jolt to get out of their rut.

| But break off the attack and they can find their way back to clarity.  Then
| "catch them" being normal and reinforce that.

  Again, there is much evidence of your pain and suffering, but although you
  cry out for compassion with your plight, you turn patronizing, arrogant, and
  even dehumanizing towards a large number of individuals by pretending to be
  able to know them all.  You define what is normal /for/ them.  This would not
  be so bad if it were possible to ascertain that you are normal, or generally
  that one is normal.  The desire to be normal is so strong with people who
  fear having a deviant psychology that they hunt the literature for evidence
  that they are within at least one definition of "normal".  However, there
  /is/ no "normal".  There is expediency of actions and reactions.  Rationality
  is not acting in particular way, it is using the feedback from the world that
  is acted upon to modify the actions.  You declare someone other than normal
  and irrational when you cannot understand them, but more often than not, this
  has been abused by both the medical and other professions with power to judge
  people to mean that if a group of people who consider themselves "normal" are
  unable to figure out the reasoning behind your actions and reactions, then
  you are not normal, irrational, and possibly mentally ill.  Since people with
  average intelligence tend to be "normal" more often than not, and people with
  very low or very high intelligence tend not to be "normal" more often than
  not, this system has caused very highly intelligent people to be mistreated
  and encouraging the myth that very high intelligence is indistinguishable
  from madness.  However, among a group of people who believe in reincarnation,
  there is a different set of "normal" reactions and lines of reasoning than
  among a group of people who consider the belief in reincarnation to be prima
  facie evidence of insanity.  The stereotypical nutcase believes he is Napeleon
  Bonarparte or Jesus or some other historical figure.  Meanwhile, in other
  parts of the world, very serious people go looking for the reincarnated Dalai
  Lama and usually find him in young boys.  If you hear voices tell you what to
  do, you are classified as insane in our days, but Joan of Arc heard the voice
  of God tell her what to do and led a nation of co-believers.  "Normal" is
  such a tainted concept that anyone who speaks of it should replace it with
  the much more honest and appropriate "just like I am".

| Two things help the reality-challenged: psychotropic drugs and compassion.

  Add firm feedback from other people and a refusal to blame other people for
  their coping problems.  Compassion does not mean yielding, but many "soft"
  people tend to think they serve people by providing a cushion-like reality
  for them, creating a buffer between them and reality.  This is an insult to
  their ability to deal with the world, abrogating their ability to cope in the
  absence of such buffers.  Many psychotropic drugs have the same effect of
  dulling the perception of reality and their reactions putting people into a
  contourless world of blurred grey instead of the stark black and white they
  see in their "natural state".  Notice also how some people reach for a stupid
  accusation that other people think in black-and-white terms -- they do
  nothing but highlight their own fears of the kind of mental illness that
  people they think are insane have an all-or-nothing reaction to things.  Real
  compassion means standing fast, being a firm reference point upon which
  others can lean and judge their own coping and the reality around them.  Real
  compassion is /not/ to change to suit the person who needs it.

| We can offer only the second.  Imagine a mile in ilias's shoes.

  Indeed, you should try to imagine his continued need to post.

| disclaimer: pardon the holier-than-thou tone.

  Your tone is that of someone who has been hurt and who has now found a
  mission to protect others from similar pain by placing yourself between the
  reality you believe some people cannot cope and those people, but actually
  only preventing them from learning how to cope more than anything else.

Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway

Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.