Subject: Re: CLL statistics for 2002 (was: Looking for Lisp compiler)
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 04 Jan 2003 01:15:18 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Oleg <>
| Suppose you live in a land where one does not need to be licensed
| or hold a degree to practice medicine. Given no other information,
| would you pick a physician who holds a degree from a respectable
| university, or would you pick one who only claims to have as much
| experience?

  But suppose you live in the real world, how would you argue then?

  If you have a degree, the experience did not teach you the three
  things that I believe any employer value most highly in graduates
  -- discipline, humility, and delayed gratification -- all of these
  make them suitable as part of something greater than themselves.
  If you hire people, you want them to do what you tell them and to
  help you reach /your/ goals, not theirs.  They will not work for
  you unless they can reach some of their goals, too, of course, so
  the balancing act that this entails needs some tuning.  Someone who
  has gone through a serious amount of effort in order to complete an
  education on somebody else's terms, has demonstrated that he is not
  only able to subjugate his personal desires to the demands from his
  superiors, he has been able to obtain good results while doing it.

  If you took time out of your life to read what I wrote before you
  succumbed to the urge to respond, you would see that I ended the
  paragraph you did not understand with the following words, which
  you deleted, probably thinking you had already understood the point
  and did not need the punch line:

    If you /pay/ for following orders and for being judged harshly and
    placed among increasingly smart people until you are no longer
    smart enough to keep moving upwards, imagine what the person
    hiring you will be /relieved/ of!

  Do you grasp what this means, "Oleg"?  Do you think that perhaps
  the point was to demonstrate the /values/ of a degree to those
  hiring degree-holders?  Perhaps you have now demonstrated that your
  degree, if any, is completely worthless to any employer because you
  failed to get the /real/ message?  You do not have a degree, if you
  have one, because of what you know.  That is immaterial.  You got
  your degree, if any, because you could follow a scheme much larger
  than yourself and still fit in.  /This/ is valuable to an employer;
  you will get on-the-job training for your real work, anyway.  There
  are other ways to acquire these basic skills and character traits,
  but nothing really beats having an institution with a solid track
  record for weeding out the mistakes approve it.

  It appears that you think what I wrote was a slight towards those
  who hold degrees.  Now, why the fuck would I do that?  Perhaps you
  are just a wee bit too sensitive on this topic and have shown the
  whole world that you get your exercise from jumping to conclusions?

| The whole issue is so commonsense that I feel ridiculous writing
| about it.

  Good, I feel ridiculous reading your stupid retorts to arguments I
  have never made, but are you sure you know why you feel ridiculous?
  The argument you make is so trivial as to be laughable, but it is
  quite suspicious that you have to invent an imaginary land devoid
  of relevance to the real world in order to make such a commonplace
  observation.  Clearly, it is not easy for you to demonstrate its
  validity in the real world, or you would have done that, right?

  That you manage to believe that somebody disagrees with your point
  speaks volumes about you, but says absolutely nothing about either
  the argument that nobody has made or the people you try to make it
  appear as though have made an argument you fight so hard to counter
  for your very own personal reasons.

  When you feel ridiculous countering some obviously wrong claim,
  perhaps it is time for you to dismount your high horse and try to
  read what people /actually/ write instead of being laughed off it
  because you failed to get the point.  You do not want to be a high-
  horse dropout, do you?

Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway

Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.