Subject: Re: What Part of Unspecified Does Kenny Not Understand?
From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 23:01:03 -0500
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <h_KdnRi7Rp3iKLbVnZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@speakeasy.net>
Kent M Pitman  <pitman@nhplace.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Edi Weitz <spamtrap@agharta.de> writes:
| > The CLHS at alu.org is at version 4.0 while the one at lispworks.com
| > is at 7.0, presumably fixing a couple of issues with earlier versions.
| 
| The issues were not major (and none are technical), but yes, there are
| some fixes, including a better index.
+---------------

O.k., guys, I'll stop doing that unless/until the LispWorks version
gets mirrored at "alu.org". Just so you know, the main reasons I tend(ed)
to point at the ALU site are:

1. The URL(s) for Harlequin/Xanalys/LispWorks kept moving around
   right about the time I was starting to use CL in anger, and articles
   I posted ended up with broken CLHS links in the archives. (Bummer.)
   I had some hope that the ALU URLs would be more stable [but that
   hasn't always been the case, either, oh well].

2. I *hated* (and still dislike) the Franz version ("way too different"),
   so I never pointed to it.

3. I *prefer* the gray background [which, despite Kent's comment to
   the contrary, is *still* what I see with my browsers on both the
   ALU & LispWorks sites, but *not* at Franz's -- go figure].

4. I *prefer* the "long" filenames, since I have a little personal/local
   web-based CGI "grep" tool [though written in CL, not shell] that does
   pattern matches against the v4 filenames. [The "8.3" filenames on v.7
   (LispWorks) are *way* too short to do any meaningful matches on. Ugh.]
   And since the old Harlequin version (v4?) is what I have on my laptop,
   when I find a page locally it's just an exchange of URL prefix to
   convert my local URL to a globally-accessible URL on the ALU site.

5. And last but not least, it seemed to be somewhat of an imposition
   for us to *always* be beating up on LispWorks's web server, when
   we could spread the bandwidth load around a bit. [And the ALU server
   certainly was never very busy...]

Perhaps the "right" answer is to upload all three versions to some
neutral, "permanent", super-high-bandwidth site [SourceForge? GoogleCode?
other?] and offer a choice from a meta-cover page, maybe along with
a file (sexp, natch!) which relates the filenames of all three [or
more, if more variants are desired], e.g.:

    ...
    ((:franz_6.2  "dictentr/standard.htm")
     (:harlequin_v4 "Body/typ_standard-char.html")
     (:lispworks_v6 "Body/t_std_ch.htm"))
    ...

Then people could easily translate from one format to the other.

+---------------
| Also, I got a complaint from someone who was dyslexic who said that a
| a partial "workaround" for that problem is to view things in high
| contrast, and who pleaded with me not to put it on a gray background.
| That's why it's on white these days, although it may just look like an
| artistic choice--certainly there's very little text-on-gray in the
| modern world compared to when the web was new.  I do personally find
| the white background easier to read.
+---------------

I don't, as I said above. Only the Franz version shows up with a
white background in the browsers I use.

+---------------
| > It also makes clearer that (the predecessors of) LispWorks - and not
| > the ALU - paid for the generation of the HyperSpec, own the rights to
| > it, and made it publicly available.
| 
| LispWorks Ltd. presumably had to pay to acquire the assets they now
| enjoy, of course, so I think it's right and proper to say they paid for it.
+---------------

But the ALU version gives full credit to Harlequin on every page!
Didn't Harlequin pay for the production of that version? (v4?)

+---------------
| I do agree that having the site continue to point through to Harlequin
| is not fair to the people that made it, though.
+---------------

What does "point through" mean, here? You mean the clickable Harlequin
logo in the upper-left-corner of each page? It only "points through"
if you click it -- the image itself is local to wherever the CLHS mirror
is hosted. [And if you *do* click it (though why would you?), it gets
redirected to <http://www.globalgraphics.com/>, heh.]

+---------------
| I have said in the past and I will say again: The correct solution to
| alu.org remaining vendor-neutral is for it to ALSO host other vendors'
| documentation (e.g., Franz's alternate spec) if it wants to do that,
| and to let individuals choose which to reference.
+---------------

'Kay, fine. (See above.)

+---------------
| But it does as it stands have the vague look of something that is
| trying hard to not acknowledge that Harlequin is no longer there
| and is trying hard not to accept that LispWorks is a viable vendor,
| making money, trying to solicit customers, and paying their dues...
+---------------

Whoa! IMHO, you're reading *way* to much into the situation if
you're imputing that anybody is "trying hard" to do *anything*!!
Nobody's "trying" to acknowledge or *not* acknowledge anything
other than the text as it stands, which is unaltered from the date
the tarball was fetched. It's a totally passive historical accident.
A openly-copyable snapshot was taken at one point in time, and
nothing different is being "represented" by anyone as far as I know.
No hidden agendas in favor or against open-source, at least, not
in the CLHS sub-tree.

[I will not speak to the tone of the rest of the ALU site, other than
to note that <http://www.cliki.net/index> says that "Non-Free...resources
can be found at the ALU wiki <http://wiki.alu.org/>", implying that
the ALU site *isn't* as exclusively open-source oriented as the CLiki.
Likewise, <http://wiki.alu.org/Implementation> mentions a full panoply
of both commercial vendors & open-source projects.]

+---------------
| So I join with Edi in publicly requesting that someone fix the ALU
| web site.
+---------------

If by "fix" you mean put all three versions up there with a
meta-cover page, then that sounds like a good idea in any case.
I'll talk to the chief maintainer and see what has to be done
to make it happen...


-Rob

-----
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