Subject: Re: CLOS is hard. Let's go shopping  (Was Re: Lisp in Python)
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 01 Oct 2002 21:25:49 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

* Erann Gat
| Just because someone is stark raving mad doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong.

  No, it does not, but here's a simple test: If I challenge the criticism
  and want to learn if they are able to engage in dialogue instead of
  accepting it, will they turn mad with rage and rant and rave about
  irrelevant issues or are they able to understand that their perspective
  may not be universally acceptable?  If they cannot understand that just
  because they feel something, it is not necessarily so, their criticism is
  completely worthless for the simple reason that it is a criticism of
  their own feelings, not of anything I have done.

  Another important test is to see whether there is any way to make the
  criticism go away.  For the stark raving mad, it is not something I do
  that I can change that is at issue, it is me as a person they dislike and
  have to attack in public.  Such morons are clearly irrelevant for me.

| The rules of civilized behavior were invented so that petty annoyances do
| not degenerate into wars.

  Then why do you only require that /others/ be civilized and not yourself?
  Why do you believe that if you /think/ someone is uncivilized, you have
  the right to attack them viciously and prolongedly without end in sight?
  If your "civilized behavior" only apply to people you /like/, it is worth
  less than nothing -- it is a /threat/ to civilized behavior everywhere.

  So far, the cretins have behaved much worse than I ever have.  I do not
  go after people.  I criticize their /statements/ and /specifics/.  They
  attack my /person/ and /generalities/.  This distinction is lost on the
  cretins because they do not know the difference, so they /believe/ their
  person is attacked and that the criticism is general.  If they had had
  the mental wherewithall to /ask/ instead of /assume/ and would want to
  /understand/ before they /defended/ themselves, they would both feel much
  less bad and they would not be cretins in the first place.  What makes
  the cretins cretins is precisely that they assume too much and then are
  manifestly unwilling to listen to correction to how they /feel/.  How
  could one possibly deal with people like this.  In their disturbed view,
  they are both infallible and righteous and beyond the reach of reason
  because they do not even have sufficient respect for the person they feel
  have hurt them (active intention) because they feel hurt (passive effect)
  to be able to listen to counterviews.  This is also impossible after they
  have lashed out with their personal attacks, because it is such a goddamn
  stupid thing to do that they /must/ defend this stupidity lest they
  accept to /be/ morons, not just occasionally behave like one.  This is,
  again because they think people /are/ the worst they do, and in fact
  attack me on that basis, so if I point out that they have done something
  moronic and behave /like/ morons in that respect, they feel they /are/
  morons.  This massive failure to deal with their own failures and their
  abject rejection of reason as their guide to self-esteem leads them to
  both feel hurt and actively seek to hurt others.  In brief, cretins are
  out of control when they have any negative emotions at all, and blithely,
  stupidly assume others are, too.  They are the people who think it is
  somebody else's problem that they feel offended and would invent
  political correctness if it had not already been invented by other
  cretins who have to blame someone for their own coping problems.

  If it is civilized behavior you want, try reacting civilized when you
  feel hurt.  That is when it counts.  If you cannot react civilized to
  what /you/ believe is uncivilized behavior, you are both manifestly
  unjust as well as unethical, judgmental, and uncivilized.  In brief, a
  cretin.  You seem to think all this are good things, however, and that
  you should not feel ashamed for talking about the civilized behavior of
  others with our record.  As far as civilized behavior goes, I am /miles/
  ahead of you, and regard your criticism of me as extremely immature, like
  a child who has memorized but not understood some rules from a book and
  fail to understand that it is /not/ civilized to run around and accuse
  people of not being civilized according to your stupid rule-book.

  Speaking of books, I gave you a hint once.  You replied only with your
  typical stupid indignation.  Perhaps you should read it.  Let me give a
  few references that may help you understand my view of you and of what
  /real/ civilized public conduct is about and why chastising you childish
  cretins is /not/ a violation of it:

DDC 158.1; ISBN 0-517-59798-5; LCCN 93044654; 1994
Dave Marinaccio
All I really need to know I learned from watching Star Trek
  On the societal values exemplified by Star Trek

DDC 179.9; ISBN 0-674-80861-4; LCCN 72083468; 1971, 1972
Lionel Trilling
Sincerity and Authenticity
  On the development of these concepts in literature

DDC 309; ISBN 0-393-30879-0; LCCN 76025131; 1974, 1976
Richard Sennett
The Fall of Public Man
  On the loss of separation of private from public persona

DDC 395; ISBN 0-312-28118-8; LCCN 2001048651; 2002
P. M. Forni
Choosing Civility
  On the purpose and method of being civil

DDC 323.196073; ISBN 1-893554-44-9; LCCN 2001040833; 2002
David Horowitz
Uncivil Wars (the controversy over reparations for slavery)
  On the willingness to hurt those who "offend" with truth

DDC 812.52; ISBN 0-374-52799-7; LCCN 99087875; 2000
Lionel Trilling
The moral obligation to be intelligent: select essays
  On literary criticism from an ethical vantage point

  All of these books should be read with focus on some pointed questions:
  "Is it my responsibility how I feel or somebody else's?" and "Do others
  have a duty to make me feel good and can I punish them if they don't?"

  /Children/ should not be hurt, should even be protected from harm, and
  should if possible be made to feel good because they are neither expected
  to have the mental apparatus to deal with criticism nor expected to cope
  with their emotions.  /Adults/ should never be treated like children nor
  should they demand to be treated like children.  Growing up means gaining
  control over your emotions and your behavior in public.  However, hurt
  even adults enough and they turn violent.  I, for instance, get /really/
  pissed at the retarded children who have never developed beyond the stage
  in their lives where they think taunting, harrassing, disrespecting, and
  mistreating those who are not exactly like themselves is proper behavior.  
  Childish and lower primate behavior like that should be confined to zoos.
  And typically, they think Usenet is a kindergarten/zoo because they think
  life in general is.  There is only one thing to do: Yell at these retards
  that they grow the hell up.

Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway

Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.