Subject: Re: Rainer Joswig a sample of the con artists the Common Lisp community produces ( Re: thank you all, but...)
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 11 Aug 2002 05:23:56 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.lisp,comp.object,
Message-ID: <>

* "peter_douglass" <>
| It isn't using CL that causes the problem.  The problem is that the hostile
| atmosphere inside of comp.lang.lisp has driven away most CLers who are
| neither con artists, nor suffering from mental infirmities.  It is a sad fact
| that IMHO, comp.lang.lisp is probably ruined beyond repair.

  You are helping to make it more hostile and less inviting.  Why do you do
  such a moronic thing?  What do you have to offer but gripes about others?

  You are the problem if you do not choose to post quality articles.

  What actually drives good people away is people like you, who ignore the
  quality there is and focus on creating a hostile environment because you are
  much more interested in what you hate than what you like.  Sadly, such people
  flock to attack people who do not do their bidding, who do not bow to their
  standards of submissions.  In short, you are demanders, not suppliers.  When
  a demander does not get what he demands, he starts complaining about other
  people.  /This/ is what the suppliers notice about a forum.  When it becomes
  a forum for demanders who are never satisfied, the suppliers leave, because
  there is no longer anything for /them/ to value there.

  Posting to USENET is not some selfless act.  It takes time to read and write
  good articles.  That time has to be repaid and rewarded somehow.  When all
  you get from people who would never be able to produce a posting worth
  reading if their life depended on it, is complaints that it is not /enough/,
  you quickly realize that the whiners and losers have taken over the forum.
  When people feel they just /have/ to voice their opinion about how badly
  somebody else behaves, you know what the whiners and losers are more
  interested in than actually contributing to quality articles.  I venture that
  nothing can be so unrewarding as some hypocritical asshole who thinks that
  his view on proper behavior should become the topic of discussion.  Either
  you know how to behave better and do, or you do neither.

  Write something about Common Lisp, Peter Douglas!  Show us your insight.
  Share your valuable points of view on Common Lisp, and ignore the fact that
  you think the forum is ruined.  You can help rebuild it with your unique
  insight and valuable contributions.  Remember, you know what you like, nobody
  else does.  What you dislike is not nearly as interesting for others to hear
  about, no matter how important you think it is to express it publicly.

  Look around you and focus on all the broken things, everything that could be
  better if somebody else would just do the work.  There is no shortage of crap
  and low-quality goods.  Whine about that.  Watch TV and hate every show.
  Hate the ads, hate the products advertised, hate the people who buy them so
  you get more of the same crappy ads in the same crappy shows that people who
  buy the crap watches.  In a short time, you will become the worst of the
  worst yourself, blaming others for your ever growing misery.  Your home or
  trailer is probably ruined beyond repair by this time, so there is no point
  for you to start fixing anything.  Whine some more.  Then die in misery.

  /Or/ look around you and focus on all the great things that people do.  Look
  for something to brighten your day every day.  Be the first to smile when you
  meet people.  Comment on things you appreciate to people responsible for it.
  Improve on the quality of your surroundings by picking up garbage left by the
  uncaring.  Repair things that break.  Learn the names of your neighbors.
  Take charge and organize efforts to keep your environment beautiful.  Offer
  to help people who get sick.  Make your abilities known to others without
  bragging or advertising, inquire about what others are good at.  Actually
  talk to people.  Show consideration for others and make your concerns known
  without complaining.  Listen and try to understand when people are upset
  about something you might have done.  Do something you find important
  regardless of how you think others will rate it.  Make sure that you enjoy
  being yourself without being sappy or kitsch.  Do something constructive
  about everything that annoys you.  Put substance into all your efforts.  Be
  good at everything you do.  Leave things you cannot do well to others who can
  and appreciate them for saving you the trouble.  Never whine, just improve.
  Voice your frustrations early and often, so you know what to work on and are
  not maintaining a façade, but do not bother people who you do not recruit to
  help you solve the problems.  Learn from your failures and just do better
  next time.  Give credit where credit is due, pay attention to who actually
  does the job, be firm about rewards for your own work.  Live long and

  What comp.lang.lisp does /not/ need is another naysayer who would never be so
  happy as when his negative predictions become truth.  For some reason, Lisp
  is a language it is OK for losers to whine about.  It is as if it so good
  that people of limited mental prowess cannot figure how to make their mark,
  so they prefer to make it by whining about what they miss and cannot create.
  It has been this way for years, from long before any of the people you blame
  for your own negative attitudes came to the forum.  People like you have
  soured up the forum for years and have made it unrewarding for the suppliers
  to offer anything.  Nobody wants to give something to people who keep whining
  that nobody gives them anything.  So the first order of business is to get
  all the naysayers out of the forum.  Whoever are left are probably able to
  share and work together.  What we instead find is that naysayers and idiots
  think they have a right to keep posting their negative crap about other
  people.  No doubt, Peter Douglas will now take offense at my taking offense
  to his useless negative bullshit, and will defend himself and make a general
  stink here that will prove him right, instead of doing something to improve
  the quality of the place.

  What prompted /you/ to annoy everyone by posting your negative comment,
  Peter Douglas?  I would /really/ like to know, because there is something in
  addition to your faulty perception that makes you want to portray other
  people as bad and negative when in fact you are bad and negative yourself,
  and believe you are some sort of bystander looking at other people, when you
  are in fact part of the forum and creating the forum with your own attitude.

  The failure of some people to understand that it is impossible to remain a
  bystander while they post to the forum they pretend to watch from afar is
  pretty amazing.  The attitude that makes these people fail to realize that
  they have an effect on what they post to actually eludes me.  How can someone
  even think that voicing a negative opinion with no trace of a constructive
  purpose will not have an effect on those he blames for these ills, which is
  basically everyone /except/ himself?

  The problem is perhaps that we have too much tolerance fot the idiots, so
  people like Peter Douglas do not understand how unwelcome their crap is.
  But try to chase away an idiot, and two more come to his defense, as if being
  an idiot is a bigger and better right to fight for than having a good forum.
  Well, there is no doubt what the idiots prefer.   Fighting idiots is probably
  a waste of time, but perhaps it is possible to make them stop flocking to
  comp.lang.lisp when their empty lives need to be filled with hatred.

Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway

Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.