Subject: Re: the naggum-mine claims another victim
From: Erik Naggum <>
Date: 12 Dec 2000 04:47:11 +0000
Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
Message-ID: <>

| Erik has stated that this is not how he plans on operating.

  If you want to claim that I have _stated_ something, you're obliged to
  make sure that you do not put your own words and intentions in my
  mouth, if politeness and rules of order mean anything to you at all,
  and isn't just lip service.  If you stick to what you understand, it
  can be corrected if wrong, because you are still responsible for what
  you have understood and said.  If you make it look like I'm saying
  something, you write off your own responsibility for any mistakes and
  implicity if not explicitly blame me for what you feel, which is wrong
  of you, and you ought to know this before you post, so I _will_ infer
  malicious intent on your part as if you were fully concious of your
  choice of actions.  That is why I arrest people who do stupid things,
  too: Only by treating people as if they were conscious of their
  actions and choices can you expect them to respond responsibly.
  Sadly, some people are virtually unconscious and have no introspective
  ability at all, and do not respond if other people take them seriously.

  Your debate specialists know this.  It is a severe transgression to
  misrepresent your opponent.  In circles where paying attention to what
  people say is the norm (i.e., _not_ a forum where nutballs respond in
  knee-jerk manners to their own fears and prejudices), it is strongly
  self-discrediting to get caught lying about your opponent's position.

  Politeness is not just nice words, like many fools believe.  Rudeness
  starts with disrespect for people, not with harsh words.

| Anyone who says something stupid (i.e. who disagrees with Erik) will
| get flamed so as to fry the stupidity out of them (i.e. until they
| agree with Erik or leave the newsgroup).

  This "summary" is a figment of your imagination that does not even
  attempt to capture what I have actually said.  _You_ want to see a
  flame-fest, and you ask for a flame-fest with your behavior and your
  sorry inability to distinguish stupidity from such a fantastically
  stupid thing as "disgreement".  Agreement has nothing to do with it.
  In any forum worth joining, people do not _agree_ on much anything if
  you push them.  That is why there are so many complex rules of
  (parliamentary) order and why procedure is important in legal matters.

  The stupid idea that agreement is a goal is shared by the critics who
  can't be bothered to read what I write before they attack me, like you.

  I don't know what causes people of obviously severely limited skills
  at argumentation to think that the issue is agreement, but something
  in the school system is probably at fault for never educating the
  public about logic sufficiently that they can distinguish validity of
  reasoning from the contents of arguments.  Stupidity is about the
  failure to reason.  Agreement is about matching contents.  Any fucking
  moron can _agree_ with anything, and they do, too.  Not everybody can
  reason and argue coherently and constructively and in a way that is
  not stupid.  That's why we have a _representative_ democracy.

| This is not conducive to having any kind of discussion.

  Listening to what people actually write and avoiding misrepresentation
  of their points of view would be quite conducive, though, but you do
  not seem to bother much about such things, so you will of necessity
  offend those who care about whether they are misrepresented by you.
  Maybe you simply have something very important to learn before you can
  begin to teach qanyone?

| My point is that we should let Erik know that we don't appreciate
| his behavior when he follows through on his scorched newgroup plan.

  Let me know when you have managed to properly identify what you do not
  like.  As long as you are materially wrong in what you attack me for,
  you are the one that should back up and rethink your position, not me.
  If you hit the nail on the head and actually manage to be honest about
  how _you_ understand something and do not claim somebody else _states_
  what they do not in fact state, you might be able to _communicate_.

| Email privately to Erik isn't going to help ...

  And how the fuck do you know that?  You have made up your mind about
  something you have no possible evidence to support.  That kind of
  _idiocy_ is what I primarily attack.  _That_ is the stupidity that I
  want to drive out of this and every other forum, and I do _not_
  tolerate it in real life, either, but most people figure it out when
  they get negative feedback from something other than their computer.

| Instead just politely tell him that you would appreciate him acting in
| a more civilized manner.

  Yeah, but why didn't you _try_ that first?  Some introspection into
  why _you_ chose to attack me and post vile shit about me might be a
  lot more interesting, because any goddamn moron can mouth rehashed
  advice that nobody follows, anyway.  The interesting part is why you
  didn't.  I'll treat you nice when you follow your own goddamn advice.
  As long as you only want others to follow your advice, it means you
  think your advice sucks, and everybody recognizes that immediately.

| Many people have privately told me that they appreciate my making this
| point, but private email to me isn't going to convince Erik.  Everyone
| has to stand and be counted.

  Everybody can claim to have received supportive mail.  It is therefore
  utterly inadmissible as evidence, even diminishing your argument.  If
  you were honest, you would know this and not make stupid mistakes like
  making unverifiable claims.

  I don't know about you, but I'm not convinced by the number of people
  who agree to something.  Agreement is completely irrelevant to truth.
  People's minds are changed by TV commercials, for crying out loud, and
  people agree in large numbers to all kinds of obviously false stupidity.

| I would consider a 'victory' being Erik staying with the newsgroup and
| his posts arguing using logic rather that personal attacks.

  Then motivate me to do so, you piece of shit: Don't post lies about
  me, don't attack me, and don't fucking spend the newsgroup talking
  about me.  As long as you nutballs lie about me and post your stupidly
  unwarranted assumptions about me as if they were soundly supported
  facts, I will continue to think and say that you are pests and should
  shut up.  You have _nothing_ to tell me if you can't pull _yourself_
  together first.  Take the whole Marcus G. Daniels fucking fan club
  with you and realize that _you_ have some cleaning up to do before you
  can utter the slightest little peep about what other people should do.

  You want me to be polite a bunch of leaking douchebags and unwiped
  assholes who go out of their way to hurt, terrorize, lie, disrespect,
  and misrepresent me.  Show me that you can be polite and even kind to
  me first, or your stupid advice is nothing more than an insult.  Shrug
  off the abuse which you rightly recognize that you _deserve_, and turn
  the other fucking cheek.  If _you_ can't do it, don't expect me to sit
  and take your insanely unfair attacks on me, either.

  Here's a fucking clue for you and the other retards who gang up on me:
  Think of something that is likely to _reduce_ my hostility to what you
  disgusting morons keep doing.  The more you keep attacking me, the
  more I have a _right_ to see attacking people on newsgroups as a
  perfectly valid means of communicating dislike of something.  You can
  do something _else_ if you want me to "learn" something.  How obvious
  can this be, huh?  The only but _big_ difference is that I don't like
  your behavior and you don't like me, and while it matters to me that
  people change their behavior, you keep attacking me no matter what I
  do or don't, because you attack me for something you _imagine_ I do
  but _don't_, and you're too fucking _stupid_ to figure out that if you
  attack people for something they don't do, they will _never_ listen to
  you, because you are actually just a ranting lunatic who has lost
  touch with reality.  (Now, some people close their mind to any and all
  criticism that doesn't come with a spoonful of sugar for every drop of
  vinegar and don't listen anyway, but they are also the problem here.
  Everybody else, the remaining 19 out of 20 people I have suggested do
  something else, in small or big terms, recognize that listening to
  other people is a good idea.)  Let's see you punks do it, let's see
  you calm down while you feel "provoked" and justified to return with
  violence, and _you_ start being polite and nice, OK?  If you can't do
  it, don't ever expect anyone else to do what you can't for the rest of
  your miserably hypocritical lives.  Let me see an apology from you.
  What the fuck had I done to _you_ before you attacked me?  Explain
  that to yourself and _think_ about what it means to have somebody you
  have never seen in your entire life come up to you and start to beat
  you senseless.  Wife beater and child abuser, huh?  Do you _realize_
  what kind of person you are and what you have done, you piece of shit?
  It's time for you to wake up and smell the fucking coffee!  _You_ are
  the destructive force, here.  Go away, die, whatever, just get lost.

  Man, I really thought I wouldn't ever feel hatred toward anyone, but I
  tell you, if I could get hold of Marcus G. Daniels and you tonight and
  wring your sorry necks and shove you through a meat-grinder to destroy
  every remaining human appearance of the biological waste you are right
  now, I probably would.  Consider yourself "lucky" to have succeeded in
  something I haven't felt for over 30 years.  So, now, turn the other
  fucking cheek, you disgusting shit!  Apologize for the wife beater and
  child abuser accusations and do it respectfully, politely, and mean
  it, with an absolute absence of Marcus G. Danielisms, OK?  NOW!

  "When you are having a bad day and it seems like everybody is trying
   to piss you off, remember that it takes 42 muscles to produce a
   frown, but only 4 muscles to work the trigger of a good sniper rifle."
								-- Unknown