Subject: Re: the naggum-mine claims another victim From: Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.net> Date: 12 Dec 2000 04:47:11 +0000 Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Message-ID: <3185585231203869@naggum.net> * jfrank801@my-deja.com | Erik has stated that this is not how he plans on operating. If you want to claim that I have _stated_ something, you're obliged to make sure that you do not put your own words and intentions in my mouth, if politeness and rules of order mean anything to you at all, and isn't just lip service. If you stick to what you understand, it can be corrected if wrong, because you are still responsible for what you have understood and said. If you make it look like I'm saying something, you write off your own responsibility for any mistakes and implicity if not explicitly blame me for what you feel, which is wrong of you, and you ought to know this before you post, so I _will_ infer malicious intent on your part as if you were fully concious of your choice of actions. That is why I arrest people who do stupid things, too: Only by treating people as if they were conscious of their actions and choices can you expect them to respond responsibly. Sadly, some people are virtually unconscious and have no introspective ability at all, and do not respond if other people take them seriously. Your debate specialists know this. It is a severe transgression to misrepresent your opponent. In circles where paying attention to what people say is the norm (i.e., _not_ a forum where nutballs respond in knee-jerk manners to their own fears and prejudices), it is strongly self-discrediting to get caught lying about your opponent's position. Politeness is not just nice words, like many fools believe. Rudeness starts with disrespect for people, not with harsh words. | Anyone who says something stupid (i.e. who disagrees with Erik) will | get flamed so as to fry the stupidity out of them (i.e. until they | agree with Erik or leave the newsgroup). This "summary" is a figment of your imagination that does not even attempt to capture what I have actually said. _You_ want to see a flame-fest, and you ask for a flame-fest with your behavior and your sorry inability to distinguish stupidity from such a fantastically stupid thing as "disgreement". Agreement has nothing to do with it. In any forum worth joining, people do not _agree_ on much anything if you push them. That is why there are so many complex rules of (parliamentary) order and why procedure is important in legal matters. The stupid idea that agreement is a goal is shared by the critics who can't be bothered to read what I write before they attack me, like you. I don't know what causes people of obviously severely limited skills at argumentation to think that the issue is agreement, but something in the school system is probably at fault for never educating the public about logic sufficiently that they can distinguish validity of reasoning from the contents of arguments. Stupidity is about the failure to reason. Agreement is about matching contents. Any fucking moron can _agree_ with anything, and they do, too. Not everybody can reason and argue coherently and constructively and in a way that is not stupid. That's why we have a _representative_ democracy. | This is not conducive to having any kind of discussion. Listening to what people actually write and avoiding misrepresentation of their points of view would be quite conducive, though, but you do not seem to bother much about such things, so you will of necessity offend those who care about whether they are misrepresented by you. Maybe you simply have something very important to learn before you can begin to teach qanyone? | My point is that we should let Erik know that we don't appreciate | his behavior when he follows through on his scorched newgroup plan. Let me know when you have managed to properly identify what you do not like. As long as you are materially wrong in what you attack me for, you are the one that should back up and rethink your position, not me. If you hit the nail on the head and actually manage to be honest about how _you_ understand something and do not claim somebody else _states_ what they do not in fact state, you might be able to _communicate_. | Email privately to Erik isn't going to help ... And how the fuck do you know that? You have made up your mind about something you have no possible evidence to support. That kind of _idiocy_ is what I primarily attack. _That_ is the stupidity that I want to drive out of this and every other forum, and I do _not_ tolerate it in real life, either, but most people figure it out when they get negative feedback from something other than their computer. | Instead just politely tell him that you would appreciate him acting in | a more civilized manner. Yeah, but why didn't you _try_ that first? Some introspection into why _you_ chose to attack me and post vile shit about me might be a lot more interesting, because any goddamn moron can mouth rehashed advice that nobody follows, anyway. The interesting part is why you didn't. I'll treat you nice when you follow your own goddamn advice. As long as you only want others to follow your advice, it means you think your advice sucks, and everybody recognizes that immediately. | Many people have privately told me that they appreciate my making this | point, but private email to me isn't going to convince Erik. Everyone | has to stand and be counted. Everybody can claim to have received supportive mail. It is therefore utterly inadmissible as evidence, even diminishing your argument. If you were honest, you would know this and not make stupid mistakes like making unverifiable claims. I don't know about you, but I'm not convinced by the number of people who agree to something. Agreement is completely irrelevant to truth. People's minds are changed by TV commercials, for crying out loud, and people agree in large numbers to all kinds of obviously false stupidity. | I would consider a 'victory' being Erik staying with the newsgroup and | his posts arguing using logic rather that personal attacks. Then motivate me to do so, you piece of shit: Don't post lies about me, don't attack me, and don't fucking spend the newsgroup talking about me. As long as you nutballs lie about me and post your stupidly unwarranted assumptions about me as if they were soundly supported facts, I will continue to think and say that you are pests and should shut up. You have _nothing_ to tell me if you can't pull _yourself_ together first. Take the whole Marcus G. Daniels fucking fan club with you and realize that _you_ have some cleaning up to do before you can utter the slightest little peep about what other people should do. You want me to be polite a bunch of leaking douchebags and unwiped assholes who go out of their way to hurt, terrorize, lie, disrespect, and misrepresent me. Show me that you can be polite and even kind to me first, or your stupid advice is nothing more than an insult. Shrug off the abuse which you rightly recognize that you _deserve_, and turn the other fucking cheek. If _you_ can't do it, don't expect me to sit and take your insanely unfair attacks on me, either. Here's a fucking clue for you and the other retards who gang up on me: Think of something that is likely to _reduce_ my hostility to what you disgusting morons keep doing. The more you keep attacking me, the more I have a _right_ to see attacking people on newsgroups as a perfectly valid means of communicating dislike of something. You can do something _else_ if you want me to "learn" something. How obvious can this be, huh? The only but _big_ difference is that I don't like your behavior and you don't like me, and while it matters to me that people change their behavior, you keep attacking me no matter what I do or don't, because you attack me for something you _imagine_ I do but _don't_, and you're too fucking _stupid_ to figure out that if you attack people for something they don't do, they will _never_ listen to you, because you are actually just a ranting lunatic who has lost touch with reality. (Now, some people close their mind to any and all criticism that doesn't come with a spoonful of sugar for every drop of vinegar and don't listen anyway, but they are also the problem here. Everybody else, the remaining 19 out of 20 people I have suggested do something else, in small or big terms, recognize that listening to other people is a good idea.) Let's see you punks do it, let's see you calm down while you feel "provoked" and justified to return with violence, and _you_ start being polite and nice, OK? If you can't do it, don't ever expect anyone else to do what you can't for the rest of your miserably hypocritical lives. Let me see an apology from you. What the fuck had I done to _you_ before you attacked me? Explain that to yourself and _think_ about what it means to have somebody you have never seen in your entire life come up to you and start to beat you senseless. Wife beater and child abuser, huh? Do you _realize_ what kind of person you are and what you have done, you piece of shit? It's time for you to wake up and smell the fucking coffee! _You_ are the destructive force, here. Go away, die, whatever, just get lost. Man, I really thought I wouldn't ever feel hatred toward anyone, but I tell you, if I could get hold of Marcus G. Daniels and you tonight and wring your sorry necks and shove you through a meat-grinder to destroy every remaining human appearance of the biological waste you are right now, I probably would. Consider yourself "lucky" to have succeeded in something I haven't felt for over 30 years. So, now, turn the other fucking cheek, you disgusting shit! Apologize for the wife beater and child abuser accusations and do it respectfully, politely, and mean it, with an absolute absence of Marcus G. Danielisms, OK? NOW! #:Erik -- "When you are having a bad day and it seems like everybody is trying to piss you off, remember that it takes 42 muscles to produce a frown, but only 4 muscles to work the trigger of a good sniper rifle." -- Unknown